Joe Frazier vs. Superheavyweights

Just because these guys were big and strong like Foreman doesn't mean they would KO Frazier.


Foreman was reckless and happy to get into a brawl. Lewis, and the Klits were very cautious.

I think Frazier beats Vitali and Wlad. He has about a 50/50 shot against Lewis and Bowe, IMO.

Bowe could fight inside, and he had more stamina than many are giving him credit for (see Bowe-Holyfield I).

 

This is almost signature-worthy.

 

Originally Posted by Mendoza [url]

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Furthermore, Frazier title opponents were horrible, far worse than today.

Title opponents, as in when Frazier was the champion.

After beating Ali, Frazier fought a 28-4-1 Terry Daniles who never beat anyone top rated prior to getting the title shot and lost 2 of his last 5 bouts coming into the match. Daniels career was awful, as he ended up 35-30-1atsch What's worse is Frazier did not look good vs. Daniels. Did you ever see the fight?


Then after Daniels, Frazier next title opponent was Ron Stander. Stander was 23-1-1, not too far removed from a loss to a 7-11-1 fighter. Ewww... Still the game but over matched Stander manged to buckle Frazier knees.atsch Stander would end his career at 37-21-3/


These title defenses were a joke. Kevin Johnson, Arreola, or Gomez were far better.

 

Mac Foster, not Bob. Mac was a heavyweight puncher. And no, Frazier did not fight him.

 

Let's see, Frazier was down 11 times in 37 fights. Would you call that a good heavyweight chin?

By contrast, Vitali was down 0 times, Lewis was down 2 times.

 

Honestly, should stop reading here. Big Frazier fan. Get no where suggesting any opposite opinion to yours is wrong or uninformed because the film simply says this and nothing else. Honestly, your assessment is Lewis is a better inside fighter than Ali. I think Ali proved more on the inside and so does Bojak. And Wlad's a superior clincher than Ali, really?

Body and muscles don't neccessarily mean great physical strength. If you were into weightlifting, bodybuilding, etc you would know that this is an ignorant correlation, and to assume this is what Futch is saying is irresponsible. Important to note that Futch got the hypertension Frazier that weighed 210+ in most of his context. His lowest weight was 208 versus Bugner. If Futch got the 60's Frazier I doubt he would say that.

Can you please elaborate, I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to.

Ali always knew how to clinch - us viewers just didn't see him implement this more until even later in his career when he needed to. What showed Ali didn't know how to clinch? Because he played on the ropes? Ali admitted this was silly. Frazier was really done at 225 pounds against Foreman in 76. He came up with a new strategy and lasted longer, but does this fight tells us anything really? He would've finished on his feet in Manilla if it was up to him (With perhaps dire consequences though). Comparing his chin to Wlad, which you did earlier is unbelievable laughable. Brewster commened on how he was surprised when he tapped Wlad's chin and he just wobbled. Wlad has been dropped, downed, hurt more often against lesser opponents, too. Foreman would have him down for 10 count, something he couldn't do to Frazier.

But you take the extreme. Bonavena had power, he just was a tad wild and not the most accurate puncher. You act like he fought creampuffs and feather-fisted opponents. Is that really the case when you're outweighed by 50 pounds against Mathis or fighter near super-heavyweights in Bugner. Then there's the GOAT in Ali, and the fact he sparred with Norton and was quite effective against a solid puncher like Norton.

More data to analyze. Shavers, Cooney, Foreman. And the way he got blasted out. Frazier a little ill prepared and past his best gets blasted. Then a shot one gets beat by Foreman in 76. Before that, we saw he could take a great accumulation of shots. Didn't have the best ability to take a big power puncher, but he had only been down twice previous to Foreman, and never knocked out. Did you see some of the shots he took from Ali? Yes, Ali could hit more than we would like to think. His speed, and accuracy. He stopped Bonavena basically with one big left hook, a rare feat.

Nobody fought Liston. And why take that chance. That's just stupid match-making. The rest of those fighters come from the tail end of Frazier's career, where he just tried getting his shot at Ali which he did by rematching Ellis and Quarry. It's not like he fought them and avoided better, higher ranked fighters.

You do realize that Frazier's bob & weave was perfectly designed for the jab and straight. A fast jabber like Ali missed frequently in FOTC due to Frazier's movement. Imagine the slow ponderous super heavies like Vitali trying to jab at that. He's hitting air. Combine that with the fact that Klits turn around and run away from guys like Arreola - just imagine what Frazier would make Vitali do. Humorous just imagining. I predict 3 turn around and run away per round he lasts by Vitali. Wlad just panicks and gets KTFO. Picking Wlad who lost and gets knocked down and KOed by some less than stellar figthers and non monstrous punchers. And the panick attacks he has... it's just mystifying that anyone picks him against Frazier.

You know why, don't you?

Wlad better clincher than Ali.

Lewis more proven in-fighter than Ali.

Frazier chin about as bad as Wlad's.

Okay :good

 

Agreed.

And don't forget such luminaries as Ramos and Zyglwicz when he held the New York title.

 

I am not a big fan of grading a fighters chin by how many times he was down.

If Lewis had got up several times against Ramhan and McCall and won, would we then dowengrade his chin?

 

Mac lost to guys Joe beat. Honestly, he isn't even worth mentioning as a duck job. He didn't beat anyone of real note except an old Folley.

 

It was on a Superstars competition around the time of Foreman I. Joe didn't display much "athleticism" in the event. He was slow, weak and uncoordinated. In particular he could not military press what appeared to be about 90 pounds. But that's why we judge boxing ability in the ring, not on the b-ball court or football field like Bert Sugar.

 

Does anybody have a video of this. Is this related to Joe Frazier swimming with the Olympians, and just looking embarrassingly awful. I think it was shown on John Stewart's show a few years back. It was awfully funny. Does anyone have a copy of this or a youtube link to refer me to. Would be interested in seeing this.

Joe did a lot of labor work when he was younger so he had physical strength. I suppose albeit not natural strength.

 

I know that you are getting it from all sides here for your position, and I don't want to be ganging up on you.

I respect you as a poster.

What I will say is that you somtimes make a mess of the timelines when acusing one fighter of ducking another e.g. Jack Johnson. You tend to say "fighter A was active during fighter B's prime so why did they not meet?".

 

8 of those were against Foreman, and 2 when he was caught cold against Bonavena. And consider this: Frazier got up immediately after all of those knockdowns, having taken flush shots from one of the bulkiest punchers ever. Yet, some of those uppercuts virtually lifted Joe up in the air! If that doesn't demonstrate quality punch resistance, I don't know what does.

People get knocked down in boxing. Foreman was virtually finished on numerous occasions - even by a non-puncher in Holyfield. Ali was laid out by a virtual Light Heavyweight in Cooper. Glass jaws there as well?

Vitali hasn't been KD'd 11 times. But, then, that's not surprising considering he's been fighting the likes of Kevin "ten punches a round" Johnson - hardly a test for the beard. (The only sizeable Heavy Vitali has faced was Lewis, and Lewis collapsed his face with a glancing right hand.) Ask yourself this: would either of the Klitschkos finished on their feet against Foreman? Are we sure they'd necessarily even beat guys like Quarry and Bonavena?

 

i think lennox batterz him, vitali prime is too big 4 frazier, same with vlad, riddick might be stupid enought to lose to frazier but i wouldnt be surprised if he won also

yes frazier waz great

no it dont change my pickz