Ali-Liston I, II - fixed?

Pre-Fight #2 was shakey....originally scheduled for big city Boston, then ending up in Lewiston Maine when the "word" got out on the street.

The Black Muslims were hanging around Ali.....Malcom X was killed on 2/21/65, & Fight #2 was May 25, 1965. Some say Liston was afraid he might get shot in the ring.

I don't think this was a closed circuit fight..I think I saw it live on ABC home TV on Wide World of Sports.

 

The 1st fight clearly was legit, havent made my mind up about the 2nd one, we`ll never know.

 

Something is fishy

 

First fight was legit.

Second fight was fixed because Sonny had debts to the mob at that time, and the evidence is right there when he decided to get up after the phantom punch, and then simply keeled over perhaps saying "screw this" in his mind. Sonny had more than enough strength to get up, and wasn't really hurt by that punch. It was a good acting job though.

 

:goodand:good

 

The first fight was on the level. Liston either threatened or open-hand slapped Clay at the Thunderbird and Clay was visibly frightened. Liston, by one account, said "Now I own that punk." He trained casually and assumed that he'd get the fleet-footed, chinny (at the time, Clay was considered by no one to have a great chin) kid out of there.

The second fight. A great regret for me is that Ali had to undergo an emergency hernia operation three days before the fight in November, 1964. Liston was in optimum shape for a man his age and was highly-motivated to take "his" title back.

The Lewiston, ME match has the following shadows over it:

1. Liston had dissipated almost immediately after the November match was called off. He ended up in the clink on Christmas. He also aged 6 months.

2. There is no doubt whatsoever about his being connected to underworld figures. Eddie Futch tells the story of his being told that his fighter, Don Jordan, needed to throw a fight or else. On the eve of the fight, Jordan and Futch switched hotel rooms. There was an ominous knock on the door and Futch opened it to see ...Sonny Liston. Liston seemed confused. Futch wasn't. He believed that Liston was sent to persuade Jordan to do as he had been told. Don't call me on the details, that's the best I can remember on the fly.

As to what happened in Maine, it wasn't a "fix" in the strict sense. Ali was not complicit in the least. By the way, the idea that Liston feared the Black Muslims is just plain silly. They were a little mysterious cult. A little infighting cult who couldn't even control its own members. Liston had ties to something far older, far more serious, and far more dangerous -La Cosa Nostra.

That famous picture that everyone loves with Liston at Ali's feet is funny. Do you know what Ali is screaming at him? "Get up you yellow dog! You weren't hit!" I have no doubt that Liston took a dive. The guy had a granite chin and it is simply unlikely that Ali could summon the force to drop Liston in the first round. The idea that Ali would knock out Liston in round one is laughable. Ali has exactly 2 first round KOs in his career.... Liston and Jimmy Robertson, a last-minute sub who was 1-2.

The trajectory of the remainder of Sonny's career could confirm that no one believed that Liston was legit, but it could also confirm that the wiseguys cashed in on him and abandoned him. He ended up overseas for a while and never got another shot, though he bopped his way back into contention despite his alcoholism and scant training. That last win over Wepner turned heads.

 

Watch the strange case of Sonny Liston, also watch LISTON Fights vs.WILLIAMS then watch Ali fights ,punches arent thrown same way????

 

Second fight definatly looks fixed.

 

:goodthats a realy great post

 

S69, that was a really good post. Pretty much sums it up IMO. IF the 2nd fight was fixed then id bet my last penny Ali knew nothing of it. He was definitely hit, but he 'swallowed' it when he fell down again after 'trying ' to get up. Mind you, he was on his feet gettin the head punched off him when the fight was eventually stopped

 

Beyond a reasonable doubt, neither fight was fixed.

Watching the first fight is enough to see a very dangerous champion throwing and landing murderous punches on his ultimately superior challenger. The evidence of the fight itself should outweigh what in the end is nothing but mere rumor, however titillating and endless.

Mort Sharnik: "After the fight, I went with Sonny to St. Francis Hospital, where they stitched him up. Jack Nilon [Liston's manager] and I were the only ones with him. Nobody else was there. Sonny looked like the loneliest person in the world. They X-rayed him and put in sutures. And let me tell you, if anyone thought the fight was fixed, this guy was beaten up. His face was all swollen, chopped, and chewed up. In a way, he'd quit, but only after the fight was lost. He quit because he knew he was going to get knocked out, probably in the next round, which was what Cassius had predicted.

Nilon and I were standing, talking over Sonny, while he was lying on one of those metal tables. All Sonny said was, 'That's not the guy I was supposed to fight. That guy could punch!' Then Nilon looked at me and asked, 'What in the world will we do with Sonny?'"

The second bout is messier, but the charge of “Fix!” doesn't fit.

First, and for all time, there was a punch. And it was vintage Ali at his best. A corkscrew right square on the jaw of his extended foe. It stunned Liston and floored him. Watch the slo-mo.

What transpired next is subject to everlasting interpretation, but, again, beyond a reasonable doubt, Liston could have easily beat the count. For whatever reason, then and there he quit, resorting to somersaulting around on the canvas and going out with a whimper.

A “fix” would include Ali, a religious zealot who puntiliously disclosed the secrets of his magic tricks and refused to fix as much as a meeting with a wrestler late in his career.

So, did La Cosa Nostra make Liston take a dive? Did Liston bet against himself? This makes no sense. Sonny Liston had been the Mob’s business in boxing under majority contract for four years, and a favorite to focus and dethrone the brash, underrated Ali in a rematch. The smart money was on the Bear, nine-to-five, at Lewiston. After all, there is no better business than winning.

As for the pro-Elijah Muhammad faction’s threatening Liston, there is no evidence of it and, in any case, Liston had his own underworld ties to fall back on. The Nation was marching on well before the heavyweight champion fell in their lap; Ali’s staying champion was not vital to their interests to the point of killing off his conqueror.

Sports Illustrated certainly saw, and dismissed, the hoopla as early as its subsequent story on the fight itself. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1077300/index.htm

Liston, two years after the fight: “I can tell you what happened there. Ali knocked me down with a sharp punch. I was down but not hurt, but I looked up and saw Ali standing over me. Now there is no way to get up from the canvas that you are not exposed to a great shot. Ali is waiting to hit me, the ref can’t control him. I have to put one knee and one glove on the canvas to get up. You know Ali is a nut. You can tell what a normal man is going to do, but you can’t tell what a nut is going to do, and Ali is a nut.”

Beyond a reasonable doubt, neither fight was fixed.

 

Even Floyd Patterson took Ali's best...Sonny was the only 1 punch Ko Ali ever had and in Rd 1....The first fight looked legit and Sonny could have pulled a shoulder from reaching but far from a couragious effort on Sonnys part...These 2 fights define how Sonny reacted when opposed...of yea and a kid named Leotis Martin..now that was No fix

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3x7OyhXkiA[/ame]

Now this is a KO

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyqTaXyyCdg[/ame]

 

Beyond a reasonable doubt, Liston took a dive.

The corkscrew right square on the jaw was what Ali and Dundee later termed the "anchor punch." And the anchor punch is a figment of their combined, posterity-focused imaginations. Dundee made a career out of this stuff. He's a legend-builder, or a story-teller, depending on where you stand.

Ali's legs were out of position. They were crossed. You don't generate much leverage when your legs are crossed. It's as easy as that. The shot was an arm punch. Sure, it landed. Sure he turned it around, but it was a nothing punch. When Ali was set to punch, in position, he still couldn't be counted on to drop Sonny, despite that speed. Liston could take a big shot, Cleveland Williams proved that forever and for all time.