Joe Frazier vs. Superheavyweights

What have we here, a philly based fighter in Briscoe sticking up for Smokine Joe? As we know, local based favorites seldom admit the downside of their stable mates career. Hint of sarcasm!

Here are my points. You are free to agree or disagree with them.

1 ) Frazier never beat a good puncher. Quarry is likely the best puncher he defeated. Frazier's resume aside from Foreman who smashed him with ease, is void of punchers.

2 ) Frazier chin vs big puncher is suspect, and should be taken into consideration in fantasy match ups vs big punchers. Furthermore his attacking oriented style plays right into the hands of good punchers, Evidence is he was down 11 times in a 37 pro fight career, and down and stunned by lesser punchers.

3 ) Frazier opted out of an invitation to the WBA tournament, and fought for a lesser NY state title.

4 ) Frazier is 1-4 vs the best fighters he faced, with 3 KO defeats.

5 ) Two of Frazier title fights as lineal champion vs Stander and Daniels were very poor selections....in fact neither man would be in the top ten today in what some here consider a weak era of heavyweight boxing.

I'll bet you a chesestake and pretzel with mustard that ALL of the above points by me are valid. You can attempt to diffuse the the points and spin off into tangents, but that is not what I am here to say. Accept the truth, or don't. I am sorry if you are upset.

I am willing learn from any conversation, but when my points are obviously skipped for agenda ridden reasons on the internet, I have a small character fault of sharpening my language to the independent minded readers to get that point across.

 

By your definition of "good", neither of the Klitschkos have ever beaten a good fighter, let alone a good puncher.

Neither of the Klitschkos bear any stylistic resemblance to the fighters that hurt Frazier. It's not as if they both have unassailable chins themselves.

How would VK and WK have gone against the fighters on Frazier's record? Worse than he did.

But your points are irrelevant. It's one thing dubiously nit-picking on some infinitesimal weaknesses in Frazier's style or record; it's entirely another that he might lose to either or both of the Klitschkos.

 

Depressing since his points are so trivial, contrived and unimportant. It's just like he has to hate on anybody who threatens to slight his boys.

 

Chuvalo, Bonavena, Bob Foster, Manuel Ramos and Jerry Quarry all had ko power ... Ali, who was not a huge puncher but who could hit when he planted his feet, blasted Frazier dozens of times flush ... the argument against Joe's chin is simply wrong.

The issue about the WBA tournment is pointless. To keep bring it up shows a weak foundation in an anti-Frazier bias ...

 

Debating the tournment is silly .. Frazier was already number 2 and said it would be dumb for him to have to fight lower ranked fighters ... again I ask, who here feels anyone he did not fight would have beaten him ?

 

Mcgrain,

I have a few civil minded questions. Can you answer them?

1. What was Mathis ranked by ring magazine going into the NY State title match with Frazier?

2. What do you consider more impressive? Beating a overweight Mathis for a vacant NY State title belt or winning the WBA tournament which had several ring magazine ranked opponents in it?

3 ) Dempsey and Tunney fought for the National Boxing Association World heavyweight title, which seems to differ from the vacant NYSAC World heavyweight title that Frazier won by beating Mathis. Are you sure they are exactly the same?

 

Who did Foster ever KO at heavy? What ranked guy did Chavalo ever stop at heavy, besides Quarry who seemed to blow the count?

Ramos a big puncher at heavy? With a 33% Ko ratio for his career? Odd statement, yet when Ramos actually landed something he clearly shook up Frazier.

I would call Quarry a sharp hitter, not a big puncher,

Sorry none of these guys are big punchers in my book.

I would guess if you came up with a list of top ten heavies, Frazier's chin is among the three worst on the list. If you don't mind, I'd like to see your top ten list, then see your own comparison on where he'd rate in terms of chin.

 

I think have replied to quite a few questions and statments in this thread. Perhaps more replies than anyone else. If I missed a few, I can address them later here or via PM.

My quesitons for you are:

1. What was Mathis ranked by ring magazine going into the NY State title match with Frazier?

2. What do you consider more impressive? Beating a overweight Mathis for a vacant NYSAC title belt or winning the WBA tournament which had several ring magazine ranked opponents in it?

3 ) Dempsey and Tunney fought for the National Boxing Association World heavyweight title, which seems to differ from the vacant NYSAC World heavyweight title that Frazier won by beating Mathis. Are you sure they are exactly the same?

I'll have to read the replies later as I have family coming over for the holidays. Maybe Sunday or Monday,

 

Mendoza, over the past year I've seen you here go around endlessly on points and I'm not into it. You are simply wrong about Frazier and the vast majority of knowledgable boxing historians agree with me.

Since Foreman was the only man to ever TKO Joe, not a cornerman when he was blind, and since you love to write, why don't you tell me what heavyweights did Foreman did not hit hard enough to stop ?

 

As I said take Foreman of the equation. to answer you question Foreman in his prime went the distance with Jimmy Young, and and Peralta. If truth is told. Foreman looked gassed in the 10th vs., Peralta, and if the fight was 12 or 15 rounds Foreman might have been in trouble. As we know Foreman collapsed in his dressing room after the Young fight.

Frazier was down by others and shaken up rather quickly on some solid punchers that landed. This to me says he never had a good chin vs punchers. Most heavyweight don't.

In the context of durability among champions, Frazier is not first or second tier in my opinion.

I asked you to come up with a list of your ten best champions and honestly tell me where you'd rate Frazier's chin on that list. I'd still like to read that one day. I predict it will not be high on the list. If this is the case you and I are mostly disagreeing on shades of gray on this topic.

 

:happy. I applaude you with that post.