Joe Frazier vs. Superheavyweights

Mendoza has been brutal in this thread btw.

 

atsch Because Foreman's team told him in the 9th round that it was the last round and Foreman gave everything he had to knock him out. His team didn't want him to lose that image of invincibility, and they were going to try testing him and giving him a challenge anyway. Foreman was furious!

 

He's made some good points, at least tempering the drooling adoration of Frazier that occurs here. The guy was obviously vulnerable, obviously avoided a couple fighters (and should have avoided others) and got chin checked and failed against some underwhelming opposition. This is total devil's advocate approach but there basis is there for an argument.

 

Failed against underwhelming opposition? Ali and Foreman?

Avoided a couple fighters? In that case, every fighter basically avoids certain fighters.

 

Why is this relevant? Frazier ended up beating the guys who performed best in that tournament.

 

Mendoza's responses have been pitiful.

 

Why take Foreman out of it ? He was the only fighter to stop Frazier. Eight of Frazier's knockdowns were suffered against him. Your point is that he is an overated fighter with a shaky chin and I ask you to tell me who Foreman could not have stopped if styles meshed and George landed on him. If anything Frazier should be praised for having the tremendous heart to keep getting up asking for some more ...

Seamus, who did he avoid that he should have fought ? What underwhelming opposition did he fail against ?

This is not devil's advocate arguing, this is throw any sh-t against a wall, however how unsubstanciated.

 

Getting twice floored by a 5-10 caveman style fighter who wouldn't be allowed in a major HW ring today and wobbled by the likes of Ramos among others are reasons enough question the chin. Am I saying my answer is that he had a bad chin? No, not in his case but he obviously could be reached and is no Oliver McCall in that department.

My post was merely stating that Mendoza asked questions in the fashion of critical analysis rather than jock sniffed his way through the topic at hand. Regardless of what answers or conclusions you draw from said inquiry, in these parts his approach is refreshing.

 

One helpful poster who can come forward if he choses, and who was around and in the know at the time, claims the Frazier camp repeatedly turned down the opportunity at Liston, wanting nothing to do with even an aged version of Sonny. If this claim is true it proves Frazier's people knew early on his vulnerabilities.

Now, all fighters have vulnerabilities. They succeed on their ability to limit these as a factor in the outcomes of their contests. However, I think we can agree or at least agree to suspect Frazier's vulnerability was with bigger, stronger fighters.

 

No manager in his right mind would match an up-and-coming HW against Liston during that time. And that was why none of them was matched against him. Frazier's manager only came to same conclusion a the managers of Quarry, Ellis, Mathis, Bonavena etc. Facing Liston was a lose-lose situation.

 

Seamus, if the caveman you are refering to was Bonavena, then you must know he is the only man who floored Chuvalo as well ... now George is known to have a fairly decent chin. Again, I'm not sure since Bonavena, who also gave Ali hell as well, was 6' ..

Ramos was a murderous puncher , who caught Frazier flush, fresh in round one, practically lifting Frazier off his feet with the shot. Joe rolled with it and came right back firing ... again, why bother with the facts when fabrication is so much easier ...

Who do you feel had a great chin ?

I think Ali did. However, if I used your logic I can say he was dropped by Banks ( a small heavyweight) , badly wobbled by Jones (a light heavyweight) , basically knocked out by 188 pound Henry Cooper, dropped badly by the 204 pound Frazier ( another 5' 10" midget , I guess) , badly hurt by a 208 pound Norton and severly staggered by a 211 pound Shavers ... and this is Ali ...

How's Dempsey ? Suffered many knockdowns on his way to the title by his own admitance against men forgotten by most historians, few being heavyweights, staggered by light heavyweight Carpienter, badly hurt by 200 pound Brennan, knocked silly three times by rank amateur Firpo, decked by the blown up light heavy Tunney and oh, almost forgot, KO'ed in one and left unconcious for minutes by 5' 9", old journeyman Fireman Flynn ... imagine if he fought black fighters like Jeannette, Langford or Wills ?

Let's look at Rocky ... staggered three times and almost stopped by ring immortal Lowery. Staggered by Carmine Vingo. Dropped by 37 year old 196 pound Walcott. Dropped and basically retired by 42 year old, light heavyweight Moore ...

Even a universially acknowledged iron chin like Holyfield was staggered by Qwai in their first fight, out on his feet v.s. Bowe, knocked out by Bowe, rocked to his heels v.s. Cooper and KO'ed by former midleweight Toney ...

I'll put Frazier , who kept getting up v.s. a prime Foreman, up against that list.

 

Good post.