Introducing the 'How To Beat _' Series

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by TommyV, Dec 24, 2009.


Page 1 of 3
  1. TommyV

    TommyV Loyal Member banned

    32,127
    41
    Nov 2, 2007
    Inspired by Greg's 'How Do You Beat Henry Armstrong' thread, I thought this might be an interesting idea.

    Each week I'll pick a fighter who we can discuss how we think he can be beat.

    After your analysis of how you think he can be beat (Doesn't have to be long, just a brief assessment of how you think his opponent should approach the fight to stand the best chance of victory), I'd like to ask you to put down a name of a fighter who you think can beat him, with a brief analysis of how you think the fight might go.

    Then, I'll tally up all the votes for each fighter mentioned. The one with the most votes, we'll pit against the selected thread's fighter and we'll have a vote on the outcome, which I'll then weigh-up to see if we have successfully beaten the fighter of discussion.

    RULES:

    • The fighter you name most have fought within that weight-class. For example, if we are talking about Bob Foster at 175, you can't pick Monzon.
    • You can only put down 1 fighter who you think will beat the fighter of discussion.
    • No analysis, no vote. :smile
    -

    So, with the introduction out of the way, we'll start this week with an obvious one to an extent, the great 'Sugar' Ray Robinson.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUYhjX64pDo&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUYhjX64pDo[/ame]


    Obviously a tough match-up for anybody, given he had everything. Speed, durability, perhaps the greatest footwork of all time coupled with perhaps the greatest offensive tools of all time. Any punch in the book could be thrown with pace, venom and accuracy. Couple that with excellent all round boxing skills, under-rated strength and defensive awareness, and we've got a tough job finding somebody to beat him.

    Conditions - Prime-for-prime, 12 rounds at 147lbs, 8oz gloves. All bouts are contested under the unified rules (No standing 8 count, no 3 knockdown rule, cannot be saved by the bell in any round, scorecards after 4 in the case of a cut from an accidental illegal blow)

    This content is protected
     
    TommyV, Dec 24, 2009
    TommyV, Dec 24, 2009
    #1
  2. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

    38,034
    90
    Nov 10, 2008
    look forward to it when i get more time i'll anaylisis how to beat Ray Robinson. A coincidence was i was watchign some Robinson this morning.
     
    GPater11093, Dec 24, 2009
    GPater11093, Dec 24, 2009
    #2
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,858
    47,776
    Mar 21, 2007
    I'll pick Charley Burley.

    Charley Burley was known specifically for the quality of his feints, "he could feint you with his shoulders, his feet...he could feint you with his eyebrows" is the most famous quote in this regard, spoken by Archie Moore. He was also very, very fast, seemed to be good at all ranges based upon what we have on film, and was physically strong. Combined with his great balance, great transfer of balance, and good footwork this takes away Robinson's ability to fight at close range.

    He was able to mix it with an in-fighter with repuatation against LaMotta because LaMotta was not anything like finely balanced enough to take proper advantage of those moments. Robinson could lean into Jake (much stronger) deliver a troubling body-blow and then be out without getting countered because Jake was a little off balance or took to long to "get across". He wouldn't have these advantages against Burley who would have a serious strength advantage and no lapse in balance. So Robinson won't be coming inside.

    That's part one - territory only one of our fighters is able to fight on - part two is keeping Robinson from doing his best work. Kid Gavlian was able to do this with feints and counter-punching. Robinson is described and described himself as being tied in knots for this fight, worried to launch an attack for fear of getting countered, for fear of being led. I think Burley was better at feinting than KG, though i'm supposing a bit now. I'm satisfied, though, that Burley was quicker (though KG was deceptively quick and sometimes gets underated for handspeed IMO) and that he hit harder - in other words Robinson would have more reason to fear Burley than he did KG, whom he clearly feared.

    Parts one and two in place, how does Burley win the fight? I'm afraid by pot-shoting. I've never felt this would be a great fight, just two great fighters doing great things, not the same at all. I think it would be incredibly close. I think Burley would get the better work done on the inside on the rare occasions the fight went there and there would be nothing to chose between them on the outside. There might be very little between them on the cards - perhaps almost nothing. But i'd pick Charley to finish the job KG started and pick up the slimmest of SD's over 12.
     
    McGrain, Dec 24, 2009
    McGrain, Dec 24, 2009
    #3
  4. TommyV

    TommyV Loyal Member banned

    32,127
    41
    Nov 2, 2007
    Cheers Greg. Look forward to your input.

    Cheers for the response McGrain. One thing though, I initally put the fight at 147, but I'm considering bumping it up to 160 because of the greater footage of Robinson at the weight coupled with being his career weight for long-periods. What do you think? 147 or 160?
     
    TommyV, Dec 24, 2009
    TommyV, Dec 24, 2009
    #4
  5. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

    38,034
    90
    Nov 10, 2008
    McGrain makes a great case, however just thinking in a breif outline the person to beat Ray needs to be able to force the pace and be able to push Ray back as he did his best work when he let his hands go.

    So for me they need to be fairly aggresive but also need to be able to combine their offence with a smart defence so there not getting picked off while forcing the pace.

    3 names come to me Duran, Napoles and Basilio.

    Duran i feel has a good chance as he had very clever pressure and could get Ray on the inside, he was also very elusive. However i feel that Robinson was a very big and strong Welterweight and would be able to hold his own with Duran, also Ray leonards movement did frustrate Duran and Robinson also had great lateral moveemnt and IMO could punch more effectivly while moving than Leonard.

    Napoles, of the three mentioned i think he has the best chance. He had great offence and defence combined as he came forward with his smooth head movement. The other things that give Ray problems is Napoles's booming hooks especially to teh body which Ray had trouble with early against Lamotta. However, i dont think Napoles could force the fight sufficiently to keep Ray from throwing the combos and this would develop more into a shootout with ray coming out on top.

    Basilio, obviously he beat Ray at Middleweight when Ray was older, he has the ability to push Ray back and force the pace with Ray but despite ebing underrated defencivly i do think hes slightly to easy to hit and Ray can pick him off as he comes in. Also the fact that Ray Robinson gave him trouble with his movement does not bode well as at Welterweight he was ighter on his feet.



    On an unrelated note, from the footage i have seen Robinson at Welterweight did not move as much as he did up at MW and LHW he tended to be ore of a boxer puncher and looked to force a fight but still moved laterally to set up opponents.But looked to use his force his jaba nd look to land harder combos.
     
    GPater11093, Dec 24, 2009
    GPater11093, Dec 24, 2009
    #5
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,858
    47,776
    Mar 21, 2007

    Ah, I see. Do it however you want to do it pal, but i can't change my post - nothing stopping you discarding my vote of course. I wouldn't take it personally or anything.
     
    McGrain, Dec 24, 2009
    McGrain, Dec 24, 2009
    #6
  7. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

    82,423
    1,464
    Sep 7, 2008
    What a fantastic thread.

    Both McGrain and Greg have got there before me: I see Robinson as nigh on unbeatable atthe weight, though I feel Duran of Montreal would have the best chance, mainly because he was as multi-faceted as Robinson. It would be an intriguing battle though, one which has been done to death over the last few days on another thread.

    This is a really interesting thread though, will be interested to see who Tommy picks ext-Ali pre-exile perhaps?
     
    Flea Man, Dec 24, 2009
    Flea Man, Dec 24, 2009
    #7
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,858
    47,776
    Mar 21, 2007

    It sounds to me like KG did quite a bit of waiting against Robinson, no? There is more than one way to skin a cat, and there is more than one way to stop a fighter letting his hands go.
     
    McGrain, Dec 24, 2009
    McGrain, Dec 24, 2009
    #8
  9. TommyV

    TommyV Loyal Member banned

    32,127
    41
    Nov 2, 2007
    I think I'll keep it at '47 to be fair. I'm more than happy for you to either keep your vote for Burley or mention somebody else though. :good

    @ Greg - Good analysis mate. Any chance I could press you to pick one of the 3, though? :lol:

    Seems like you're edging towards Napoles?

    Thanks mate.

    Ali will definately feature somewhere along the line, yes. :smoke
     
    TommyV, Dec 24, 2009
    TommyV, Dec 24, 2009
    #9
  10. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

    82,423
    1,464
    Sep 7, 2008
    147 I think, adds more debate as a)will have to try and deduct rays philosophy at the weight b) we have seen him beaten at 160.

    What I tend to do is think Robinson would be a wee bit faster, his punches would mean more and he'd be able to take a dig from anyone (he could at the higher weights)

    Is this a fair way of reasoning? Is there anything to suggest Robinson lacked/gained anything at Welter? I don't think so. Please advise.
     
    Flea Man, Dec 24, 2009
    Flea Man, Dec 24, 2009
    #10
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,858
    47,776
    Mar 21, 2007

    That will be a ****ing abattoir. I'll make a sublte ammendment to my post.
     
    McGrain, Dec 24, 2009
    McGrain, Dec 24, 2009
    #11
  12. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

    82,423
    1,464
    Sep 7, 2008
    Nice amendment :lol: :good
     
    Flea Man, Dec 24, 2009
    Flea Man, Dec 24, 2009
    #12
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,858
    47,776
    Mar 21, 2007
    It's all better now.
     
    McGrain, Dec 24, 2009
    McGrain, Dec 24, 2009
    #13
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,858
    47,776
    Mar 21, 2007

    I've a pet theory, not really backed by observation or eye-witness coroboration :lol: that Robinson started to sit down a bit more on his punches as he came up.
     
    McGrain, Dec 24, 2009
    McGrain, Dec 24, 2009
    #14
  15. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

    82,423
    1,464
    Sep 7, 2008
    :lol: fair point though, that just due to viewing the welter footage Greg is talking about? (shot from the stands if it's the same bit I've seen)

    I still imagine him having massive pop at 147 myself.'
     
    Flea Man, Dec 24, 2009
    Flea Man, Dec 24, 2009
    #15
Page 1 of 3