How big was jack dempsey really

So which Ali are you going to make faster? The late 60's version? I don't believe that's possible. It may have been beneficial to muscle up mid 70's Ali but I don't see enough examples where that increases punching power. I'm sure you know that boxing remains an aerobic/anaerobic sport as opposed to a test of muscular strength. I don't rate Dempsey too high all time but I strongly disagree with your premise that he couldn't match up physically with more modern fighters. In addition, it was his exceptional speed which seperates him from most.
I'd ask you how much Bob Foster, Tommy Hearns, or Arguello power lifts? That's rhetorical because it doesn't really matter. More within your realm of interest, how about McClellan? McClellan was a powerful man but he certainly didn't have a body builders physique. If it was all about musculature or even in large part, Orlin Norris would've been a killer.
Have you worked with cyclists? To this day it's still disputed whether weightlifting is beneficial to any cycling other than very short efforts. I don't believe it hurts but it's not the silver bullet. Well, it does actually hurt if you go anaerobic and have to carry that extra muscle up a big hill. I think the same can be said for boxing. If you go anaerobic late in a fight, you're kind of ****ed unless your opponent is equally anaerobic.
I'm not saying weight lifting can't help boxing, but you seem to discount Dempsey simply because of his physique. Dempsey was a powerful (as applied to boxing movements), athletic man.

 

Yes, 60s Ali could be faster! You seem to be confusing bodybuilding and sports applicable resistance and power training, the 2 are very different

Resistance, power, speed training isn't simply about building muscle, its possible to increase power/strength without increasing muscle mass. The greater power Ali could output without increasing mass would increase his speed, its a basic law of physics as long as the correct exercises are used as part of a systematic programme.

Cyclists don't have much use for resistance training. Boxers/Sprinters do. Speaking of athletics, most boxers would benefit from having someone coach them with their roadwork, as most are pretty sub-par. Improve the 400m-5000m time and you'll improve the boxer

Arguello/Hearns/GMAN all have excellent P4P power and I wouldnt be suprised if they were very good on olympic lifts, such as power jerks or cleans if they trained at them. All have dominating shoulders and probably have good overhead presses. Do they have big benches, probably not that big

 

He was mean in the ring to begin with could you imagine that roid rage hahaha

 

If you lift intensely your muscles will be slower until they recover, but after they recover should be quicker if the right exercises are used, you shouldnt lift the week before a fight for that reason though. The wrong type of lifting technique can potentially worsen punching technique, technique in lifting is very important, just like in boxing

The likes of Holyfield wouldnt be competitive in the HW division without heavy lifting

 

I think that Holyfield would still have been champion without it.

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=km...axy_is=&as_brr=0&cd=3#v=onepage&q=180&f=false

sorry boys yer all wrong

 

You're like the barbers cat, full of **** and wind

I said from the start STRAIGHT PUNCHES and now you strive for credibility by pretending i didn't atsch

Any zombie knows the core is the critical component in almost all sporting movements, that's weight training and sport 101. This is Classic, not General, we're a bit above such need. Of course the shoulders are critical too, but that wasn't the issue.

Again, the triceps straighten the arm. Cut off the triceps and you CANNOT throw a straight punch. Noboby is talking hooks and uppercuts, follow?

Yes the primary muscles (in gym terms the big muscles) and core are first and foremost for many athletic movements but the triceps and ancillary muscles need not be written off so cheaply here.

As for not knowing they are stimulated from barbell and overhead presses, wellllll

Going back, here is what you said

Dips are a GREAT exercise and do we even know if he does them bent over or straight?

If you'd ever done heavy weights you'd have realised dips are classed as a Compound Exercise and compound exercises aren't lauded for nothing. Ancillary muscles such as the chest, shoulders and traps are nicely tickled by dips and i'd personally have them incorporated into a boxing program, along with other heavy compound exercises and specialised core training.

I'm surprised you didn't realise the overall muscle participation and value of dips actually. They have their place in almost any training program, certainly for boxing.

As for me not having boxed, well on our second day the local trainer always had his kids use only the left jab on the bag workout until you thought you're arm was going to fall off.

Now you tell me, what was sore as hell the next day?

I wonder how Larry Holmes (great jabber) tore arm muscles (supposedly) not long before the Norton fight?

But regardless of us wanking on about weight training the pure fact of the matter is that there have been myriads of frightening punchers who never lifted a weight, or certainly didn't do much. Most punchers are born more than anything. Weight training now has it's place, and was very underrated and misunderstood (some still think it's going to kill speed and big muscles will = slow which i hope you realise simply need not true) even not so long ago, but punchers have come and gone without it.

 

That's the heart of the matter right there.

 

Exactly, which is why i left it to last. Let me know what you think of Spinks - Mustafa when it gets loaded for you. Eddie smoothly and almost effortlessly outboxes Spinks for near a handful of rounds before three things transpire. His dramatic weight loss from the Snipes fight (which is provable on boxrec of course), his left eye gets closed (may or may not have been a legal blow), and Spinks customary coming on hard after a few rounds.

 

1. Who cares, shoulders still rate as the most used muscle group

2. The issue was the shoulders are more critical than the tris

3. The shoulder also straightens the arm, try straightening your arm with a torn rotator cuff injury

4. Did you see me writting off their need? No

5. Who cares how he does them, ofcourse I know they stimulate the lower chest, they do little for shoulder development and they develop strength for downwood arm movement. Tell me how many punches are downward, unless you are Valuev there is very few

Regardless the maximal lift Dempsey would be 190lbs minus the arm weight as the arms dont move, so we're talking a 150-160lb lift, he will never be able to build progressive strength, I commented on this in my initial post, but ofcoursey ou ignored it. This won't stimulate or develop as much power

Personally I do use dips on the end of a bench/shoulder workout but attach plates to my waist with a a dipping belt

6. Your shoudler and tri equally if you turned your jab over properly, as I said if you arm punch your tri becomes more involved and by its nature the jab is an arm punch

7. Punchers being 'born' is 1 of the biggest load of bull**** I've heard. Punchers are born from training their punch day on day, throwing it on heavy bags and throwing it hard/faster/heavier each day he throws it while constantly improving technique.

However a good puncher can be made a great puncher by vastly increasing progressive resistance. Punch resistance improves too

Training the punching is key, but there are more punchers from the 80s onwards than any ever time, which coincides with the use of weight lifting.

 

Dempsey was only 185 or 190 pounds, but was quite rangy ; he wasn't a short armed fighter, and stood over 6'.

But he's definitely on the small side for a heavyweight. Light, built for speed. A strong, solid sinewy 190 pounds. Strong and a very powerful hitter, but a mere 190 pounds nontheless.

 

Sorry i meant to address this ages back, but we're getting to semantics now so i'll keep it short.

With straight punches? Not for mine.

The long term issue was you understating the tri's.

Compared to the tri's they are insigificant in the big picture.

i'm shocked that you think dips have no effect or benefit on punches excepting the downward.

Yes but by progressing in reps rather than weight he is going to get benefits.

What you should be doing is mixing up the order of your exercises at times so the different parts of muscle stimulated by dips can be hit harder when fresh and thus be stimulated more. Staves of plateauing too.

When i was getting the gym lots i think i was pumping out 6 reps with 88 odd pound attached then dropping weight off each set. Pretty sure it was 88 and not 66, but anyway.

Completely wrong. Some are born, some get there with training, and some don't get there no matter what they do! Then we have mixtures. Punchers cannot be thrown into one category as you just did. FFS, some guys walk in the gym never having trained or boxed at all and can ko people. Them guys are born, plain and simple.

That can happen, but it won't in many many cases or every serious boxer would be a great puncher.

Someone else can debate that one.

At the end of the day it's quite funny, because Dempsey concentrated on sparring, stretching and more light bag work than heavy and was big on training aimed at speed. He had a great start with the gruelling (non boxing) work he had done previously.

 

Yawns, you'll yet again ignore much of the science here, either that or it'll go over your head but here goes

1. I'll make it simple for you, shoulders are way more critical, how many big punchers have big **** off tris? How many have big **** off shoulders?

In terms of technicality tris dont start to be stressed until the last half of . The reason punches are 'turned over' is to generate further power from the shoulder. I do question if you can turn a punch over

2. They have benefit, are they as beneficial as the overhead press? ofcourse not? Are they even as beneficial as the barbell press? No

3. Which shows you know little about training for power/strength. High reps do not develop power anything like power training and there is no evidence he even goto the level of high repping dips.

4. Thanks for the tip, I'm in the 600 club without PEDs and know how to work around sticking points

5. Every big puncher uses powerpunching technique that gets a great deal of body torque into the punch, using the legs/hip/back/shoulders in 1 motion. Punching is technique and practise and all punchers focus on training for power, even people you think have bad technique like Foreman plant their feet well and swing in a manner that brings their hips/lower back and shoulder into the shot. Now some men maybe naturally heavier boned, be naturally stronger, be able to have bigger fists, natural leverage etc.

Then again the likes of Tommy Hearns were said not to be punchers in the beggining. Do you think when 7yos start boxing they are massive punchers? Why do they become big punchers? Training and Nutrition.

Give a 11yo George Formean zero training, zero physical labour, little food for 14 years and when he is 25 he'll hit like a little girl

Power can be improved drastically from what I've seen but people tend to focus on their strengths and improve them

7. 1 think Dempsey does well is swing for the rafters, would a weaker man like Dempsey make Holyfield blink though? No