Marciano's Thoughts on Sonny Liston

I'm probably the wrong guy to ask. My enthusiasm/knowledge of the division drops right off after Tyson was imprisoned and the championship belts were split up.

Even within the Sullivan - Tyson era I'm interested in, my knowledge is mediocre and sketchy compared to most of the brains on this forum. I cheerfully admit it!

Rocky is in my top 5 Heavies for 'greatness'...H2H, I'm not so sure. Well within the top 10, I guess. I don't really know.

He is certainly a lock for top 3 at under 200lbs H2H though.

Who exactly would you put above Rocky at sub 200lbs?

 

He Grant you just lost all of your credibility as far as I am concerned with that statement...Marciano was a freak and he hit like a Superheavy...I dont know any Crusierweights that could wack like him or 20 Heavyweights who could beat him head to head...and the thing about head to head is there are no time machines in boxing, you must either adapt training, modern or past and subtract for natural or add for enhanced (Modern muscle adding)

You thought Moore looked old in that u-tube...How old are you? I thought he looked vibrant

You are usually a good poster but I notice some posters have a negative taste for the flavor of Marciano and you are one...

 

Good Post...He grant does not like his hairstyle but he goes overboard to undermine..he protest too much

 

If you define heart by the intensity and the consistency in which you train to do anything to win. Then, I think I buy this. I see your point. I just didn't like the way you opened, and people would rather deal with someone that appears sensible to the other side's viewpoint. Rather than just marking it off as a mythologized and fairy tale beliefs.

We've done this before. And I particularly don't want to debate, I just wanted to say my peace. At the same time, I was speaking about it from the perspective and viewpoint of the other side. Not neccessarily for my sake, which is why its not a contradiction.

Well, I just see the size and reach limitations being harped on when his name comes up against a bigger fighter. But for the others, they can do the job on some matchups. Is it a point of skill difference? Do you honestly believe Frazier and Dempsey are much more skilled, technical proficient, and have better natural abilities? If this is so, I can accept that and drop this whole point.

Moore was having huge personal problems in his life. This has been accounted for. Besides, it's probably one of his worst performances. He goes on to have much betters fight (Durell 59) later on to prove that he just didn't age or die over like that over night. I rate Patterson in the top 20 in regards to HWs.

 

Good post. Moore's credentials and record at HW are greatly under-appreciated. People say it was just a very weak era, too, but didn't continue being a ranked contender till the 60's. Says a lot about the man. Great fighter.

 

Mongoose: I don't even understand the point you are trying to make with that circle jerk rant. You wrote that Moore fought Marciano at his best weight did you not ? If so you are saying his best weight was heavyweight , correct ? Thanks for the 101 history of heavyweight /Light heavyweight interaction but I simply do not know your point. I do not know what you were trying to say, just what you wrote. Simple enough without personal attacks Newbe ?

Bummy : You are clearly a Marciano fanatic starting with "Marciano was a freak, he hit like a superheavy ... " (interesting as he never fought a large . prime heavyweight let alone a superheavy) , but Earnie Shavrs , from your ringside seat, did not ... right ...so I guess Rocky hit harder than Foreman as well. If someone disagrees with you about about your idol you spew into attack mode. I can live without a favorable credibility rating under those circumstances. 200 pound or under men who I feel could crack on par, at least with Rocky: Fitz, Dempsey, Langford, Louis. How's that for starters.

Chaney: I have always said I felt Rocky a great fighter and I feel in 200 or below he belongs up there with the best. I personally put Louis, Langford, Dempsey, Fitz, Tunney over him. Others I'm not so sure. None of them would have an easy time of it. I simply feel he does not carry well against the best of the big men and would lose to men who were less than him on a pound for pound basis.

Pete: Agreed , we have been down this path before. I think at times I can come across as testy as the next guy and if I personally offended anyone I apoligize as it was never my intent. However, if dipshits with whom I have never conversed like Mongoose come at me out of nowhere with personal attacks I have no problem returning serve.

 

I suppose that's fair enough. Personally, I would bet on Rocky over Tunney, Fitz and Langford (rather less confidently against Sam) and I think Dempsey and Louis would be brutal tear ups that could go either way.

The key thing is that you say, regarding your top picks "None of them would have an easy time of it" against Rocky. Can't argue with that.

So, that's the sub 200 lb rankings more or less agreed on.

Care to name the 20 heavyweights you'd confidently pick over Rocky H2H?

 

Off the top of my head I like the following fighters to defeat Marciano:

Ali
Holmes
Bowe
Holyfield
Tyson
Liston
Lewis
Vitali
Wlad
Witherspoon
Mercer
Johnson
Louis
Dempsey
Norton
Foreman
Frazier
Tua
Fitz
Tunney

I would by no means pick all as a lock but I do feel all were better and would defeat him.

 

Could you please elaborate on the bolded fighters?

 

Wish I could, have no idea why that happened ... no special reason by me for sure ...

 

No for all the bolds pretty confidently. You pick Frazier and Dempsey to KO Wlad. So it's not the size, but the skill. That's you underrating the Rock's skills. I also pick Rocky over Liston and Louis.

So many on those are very questionable for me. I have a lot of trouble envisioning Rocky losing to Dempsey. I'm sorry, but Dempsey was an animal and his best bet is to KO Rocky early. But Rocky's stronger, more durable, and has much better stamina. Dempsey's got quickness, superior combos, and more accurate punching. Rocky has the short reach for the inside, and he will win the clinch wars. He also has strength on this his side. Have you seen the Layne fight? The bigger 200 pound Layne tries bullying Rocky. Guy was touted as the next Dempsey (Obviously not) and Dempsey said he was the most promising young HW. 1st round was competetive, the rest was Rocky bullying and breaking the durable, bigger, Layne down.

What's clear to me, is that you seriously underrate Rocky's inside fighting skills. In this fight, he got head to chest and got low while Layne stood more upright. He got his right leg a bit back to give him more strength and to be in better position. He moves his head, a bit, and crunches body punches.

 

:nono


".....You seem to have a bad habit of this and I really don't feel the need to begin each response to you with "I did not say that." so I'm dropping out of this one. "

 

Pete: No one said everyone has to agree on all or any of them ... it is a matter of opinion ... However as far as Layne goes, your point of reference for Rocky's skills, he's not in my top seventy heavyweights.

Mongoose: Rereading the thread I do see that Bummy made the quote regarding Moore's best weight not you so I was mistaken and was wrong to quote you on it. However you initiated the personal attacks so I personally have no problem telling you where you can stick your hypercritical, holier than thou attitude ...

 

For one I am Big Marciano fan and I have no agenda, I love the heart, the power,the stamina,the ability to comeback,the killer instinct wrapped up in a quiet gentleman, the spartan conditioning, and the ability to overcome. Joe Louis is my # 1 Heavy but Marciano is one of my favorite fighters. He had all the qualitys I admire in a fighter and I reconize the rarity of having all those qualitys in 1 human being.

I also feel Louis and Dempsey could crack with the best of them. Dempsey made a statement that he never had the one punch power of Marciano and he felt Rocky was the best puncher of all time. Louis made the statement that Marciano was a very hard puncher and he would always have trouble with him. I am also a big Joe Louis fan as well as Willie Pep, SSR, Duran,Moore, Walcott,Charles,Greb, Langford,Benny Leonard,Hagler,Monzon,etc. love them for there skills, heart and greatness.

As far as Earnie Shavers in everyone of my posts I said Shavers could hit very hard. I know Earnie and like him. He is a great human being. I was a fan of his and was at his fight vs Ellis,Quarry and Ali. The thing with Shavers is that when he moved up in class he lost to Quarry,Lyle,Ali,Stander,Stallings,Cobb,Mercado and some of them got off the floor to beat him, even light heavyweight 180lb Stan Johnson beat him early in his career and Vincente Rondon Lightheavy went the distance with him after getting KO'd by Bob Foster in 2. Jimmy Young only weighed 200 lbs when he fought a draw with Shavers (most felt Young won) Shavers was a puncher but did not make the grade as a great and after having Lyle,Holmes,Mercado down wound up losing by KO, he was also clean KO'd by Stander ( a club fighter) and Cobb...but I never said Earnie could not punch but I would not not put Vincente Rondon in the class of a Ezzard Charles or an Archie Moore, no where close, so while Shavers always had a punchers chance I feel he would fall like Bob Satterfield did against these Men

As far as Marciano he beat the Best men of his era. He did fight big men coming up Humphey Jackson 254lbs KO1,Big Bill Wilson 229LBS James Connely 6"3 213 KO 1, 6"4 220 lb Johnny Shkor KO6, 6"4 Carmine Vingo and 6'2 213lb Joe Louis, and Rex Layne was 6"2

and to give you an example of Marciano's power he KO'd Keene Simmons in 8rds. Simmons went the distance with 6"3 Nino Valdez 11 months later and went the distance with 6"3 Cleveland Big Cat Williams a yr later, also 6"2 1/2 Cezar Brion could not stop Simmons

Marciano fought the best of his time the # 1 contender 5 times and a # 2 contender once. Lastarza,t,Charles all beat big heavyweights Baker,Valdez,Wallace,Dan Bucceroni, etc.

As I said before the top contenders may have not been the biggest heavyweights of the time but most certainly the best and the best beat all of the bigger men of the era.


We have always had good big men Willard, Carnera and others but in recent times Lewis 6"5 and Vitali 6"7 and Vlad 6"6 have been the best but Vlad lost to 6 ft Brewster and Vitali lost to 6' Chris Byrd and Lennox was Ko'd by 6"2? Rahman and McCall and in Rahmans last fight he was about to be KO'd by 5"10 James Toney, so size is not everything. And 6 ft Fitz could punch but could he take one of Rocky's blockbusters, I fear not.


I dont know if its skin color, size or bias of an era but your Bias or ignorance is evident

 

Moore was on his best win streak ever 57 bouts minus a DQ loss and a controversial decision to Harold Johnson who he KO'd in a rematch. He beat # 1 6'2 212lb Bob Baker KO8 and #1 contender 6'3 Nino Valdez among some of the best heavyweights, and Lightheavys of the time. He weight 196.8lbs for Valdez and 190lbs for his KO over Baker and Moore weighed 189.3 for his KO over Bert Whitehurst ( who Sonny Liston could not ko in 2 fights) I think this was Moore's best time( he put it all together) and his best weight was about 190lbs.