Bowe Over Schmeling?

Good post. I do feel that Schmeling should have been the first 2x HW champ though. With the upset win over Louis he should have got the title shot vs. Braddock.

Most "boxing people" felt that Braddock would lose to either man (Schmeling or Louis). It was decided that it would be better to have a black HW champ than a nazi HW champ. Louis became the 2nd black HW champ and Braddock would get a percentage of Louis' future purses as part of the deal. WTF? Yep, it's true!

Louis did the right thing and eventually fought a rematch with Schmeling (Louis KO1).

With that said, Schmeling was a good fighter. Head to head? Bowe wins though.

Schmeling did have some good wins. He beat the likes of P. Uzcudun, J. Sharkey, Y. Stribling, M. Walker, S. Hamas, and J. Louis among others. He lost to 10 different fighters over a 24 year pro career that included 70 fights. He went 6-10-1 vs. the 10 men who beat him.

 

I love the tale of Max Schmeling.... He went through the wringer during his pro career; even dealt with WW2 as well..... He went from being broke, to rich, and back and forth over the yrs.... I'm glad Coca-Cola picked him up as a sales rep in his post boxing days..... He also paid bills for Joe Louis, too......... A heluva guy........ He lived to see age 99....... Not bad.......

MR.BILL

 

Yeah, Baer´s and Louis´ punches missed the leverage compared to Bowe´s punches. Both rank much higher than Bowe as punchers.

Baer wasn´t as sloppy as you think. When he put himself together he was far from beeing sloppy. And he did against Schmeling.

The Louis from the first Schmeling fight is still a better fighter than the best Bowe we ever saw. I stand and fall with that :deal

Sharkey was brilliant when he was focused and I h2h I take the best Sharkey over the best Schmeling but then I would take Sharkey on hsi best day over many other greats. For me he is a bit of a similar "should have been" as Walcott.
In a ranking I have Schmeling higher. Better resume, slightly better longevity and he was more consistent.

You could also say there was the young but already experienced against top fighters and unbeatable up and comer and a former champ who was already on his way out but still gave this young hot shot a lesson. :deal

Nobody talks about Schmeling beating Bowe. Even myself, probably the biggest Schmeling supporter on this side, acknowledges Bowe´s superiority h2h. But I don´t think Bowe would blast Schmeling out. Schmeling would give him a good fight. Schmeling took the punches of Louis and Baer who are both bigger punchers than Bowe, so I think he could take Bowe´s shots quite well - even so he may get stopped in the last third of the fight on accumulation similar to the Baer fight. And Schmeling´s strength and Bowe´s weaknesses would mean that Bowe would have his hands full in every round even if he wins all of them.

Yep. Not a great movie but a good one. Til Schweiger can´t act though. But he never could and still made some good movies - watch "Knockin´ on heaven´s door" where he also was the director. Great movie :good

:good:good:good

I agree. Pretty shady although understandable move from the Louis and Braddock camp.
That rematch shouldn´t count too much imo. Schmeling was already past it in the first fight and even more in the second. Add the circumstances and I think it´s clear what I mean. But that´s something why I rate Johnson higher than most. He stayed calm and relaxed in similar circumstances against Jeffries. That mental pressure must have been tremendous. But then Schmeling was no Johnson and Jeffries no Louis.

Risko and Neusel deserve to be named on this list. :good And the 10 men who beat him ... well, yeah they did but during his prime or slightly past it he lost 3 times and he also holds wins over two of those guys. Those other losses come at the beginning or end of his career and like with other fighters should be somewhat excused.

What I found most interesting about him that despite what happened he always stayed on decent to very good terms with the people in power, be it the falling apart Weimar Republic, the third Reich, Western Germany or the unified Germany, while at the same time staying true to himself and his people. That´s a very fine line he walked.

 

First I want to add that I don´t like discussing with you. I followed quite a few of your discussions and even if you have the worse arguments you put them so well the other guy has no chance. Good work :good

Well, if I remember right I wrote "evens it out a bit" not that it evens it out. Small but important difference. Yeah, when you go by the crowning fight Bowe´s title winning performance was better than Schmeling´s or to say it with the words of Eckhard Dagge: "at least he won the title by standing on his feet instead of lying on the floor squirming in pain."
I don´t think the second fight between Schmeling and Sharkey was controversial. Schmeling got screwed. Even Sharkey´s fellow countrymen knew it.

True. But that opens a door for speculation about how Bowe would have fared against a healthy Holyfield. Won´t start this discussion here though.

Well, what is prime? Just the time where a fighter is supposed to be at his best or also the weight he is at his best? Would the Mike Tyson of ´88 be at his prime if he would have been forced to fight at the cw limit.
Schmeling drained himself to make the lhw limit at the time. Daniels did what he had to do but Schmeling was badly weight drained. That should be considered when looking at this loss.

Bowe also had a professional manufactured career, a benefit Schmeling, and most fighters of his era, did not have which allowed him to avoid stiff challengers early on and build a solid record and experience. Bowe also made enough money to avoid fighting when he shouldn´t have. Unlike Max Schmeling who had to fight after WW2 - and beeing wounded after getting shot while parachuting - to make some money.

Let´s look at Schmeling´s losses and draws. Three of his losses came early in his career, as did three of his four draws. Two came after WW2. All of those can be excused like they are for so many other fighters. So, there are 5 losses and 1 draw left. The one draw is against a fighter he beat before and after. He proved his superiority over Uzcudun - and clearly. Then there is the already explained loss to Daniels. The loss to Jack Sharkey shouldn´t have been one. We had that already.
So, there are three losses to three fighters left. If you look at those you will see he also beat two of them. And for one of them you have to factor in Schmeling already beeing past his best and the circumstances of the fight (Louis II).
When you look closer into his record it looks much better than on first glance.

Yeah, Bowe didn´t lose as often as Schmeling. Even when you factor in what I wrote before. But Schmeling still fought more top contenders than Bowe and didn´t avoid anyone. Bowe didn´t only avoid Lewis but a few others as well - as somebody else in this thread already explained. I think that should be considered.
I like Schmeling´s resume over Bowe´s despite the losses. I think Schmeling´s a tad better resume and his better longevity outweighs Bowe´s consistency and dominance - actually pretty similar to my thoughts on the Holyfield-Tyson ranking.

You wrote Schmeling had a 50-10 (40) record. Yeah I know those 40 should have been KOs. I don´t care if I weakened Schmeling´s record with that. I just wanted to put it straight.

Well, why don´t we factor in Abraham´s success as a cyclist then when discussing him? Amateur boxing became a whole different sport in the 80s than pro boxing. Not comparable anymore imo.
And we are discussing the pro career of these two fighters I thought. Am I wrong?

Oh, I acknowledge Louis not beeing quite the fighter he became - also he wasn´t far from it - but like you already said while he was only two years in his career he already beat two former champs in Carnera and Baer and a few contenders like Uzcudun. That´s pretty seasoned for a young gun.
And when you factor in that most people thought Schmeling was done when he faced Louis the first time it evens the picture out. :good

 

Head to head Bowe wins though in a close contest I think, there is the chance Max would pick a flaw and a tactic to defeat Bowe. But as a human being Bowe gets KOD with the first punch compared to Schmelling.

 

Why do we have to keep bringing up Bowe only having lost one fight, he lost only once because his life went of he rails and didn't fight for over a decade not because of his fighting ability.
All the greatest fighters end up having been defeated a number of times because they fight, look at SRR and Ali as examples.

 

He also refused to fire his Jewish manager and refused to join the Nazi party and also saved the lives of some Jewish children by hiding them in his home.
Hitler never forgave him for not joining the Nazi party and had him drafted to the paratroopers and sent on suicide missions

Max is a true hero and should be given as much kudos as Ali when he refused to fight in Viet Nam.

Bowe may well win in a head to head, but I know which one I would prefer beside me in the trenches!

 

Interestingly enough, I guess he became a millionare after the war by starting his own bottling company... Someone also said that Max helped pay for Joe Louis's funeral, but I don't have a source to confirm that.

 

He helped Louis out even before he died. That´s pretty common knowledge. I read it in every biography I read about Schmeling.
I also read in one that he payed for Langford after he was found in New York by some reporter.
I know that he was the one of if not the biggest donor in post-WW2 Germany.

 

Schmeling was indeed a great fighter, great business man, and a great human being. He lived a long and productive life before passing at nearly 100 years of age... There are few personalities in boxing who have as fascinating of a life story as Max Schmeling.

 

Well, hell, as a citizen of the globe, I too would much rather live next door to Mad Max Schmeling than that of Riddick Bowe....... That's non-negotiable all the way.... BUT! That's not the issue on hand here...... The topic is, who wins in the ring if both men were peaked? My pick is Bowe...... In 1991 and 1992, I thought Riddick Bowe was one of the best hulking heavies that I ever saw box / fight in the ring....... At 6' 5" tall and 232 to 243 pounds, he seemed to be able to do most of everything asked of him in the ring.... R.B. could jab, punch, move, fight on the inside and, take a punch..... He was the goods in 1991 and 1992..... But yes, he then showed his true desire and needs when the $$$ started coming into his bank account.... R.B. put on weight and got lazy, and then, became a slob........ Riddick Bowe deserved to lose to Holy in the '93 rematch by weighing in at 246 pounds and looking thick in the girth section..... Yet, despite the fact that I didn't approve of Bowe and Rock Newman selecting "Mathis and Hide" as comeback opponents, I did enjoy seeing Riddick Bowe hammer Jorge L. Gonzalez like a rag doll on HBO in the summer of 1995........

SO! All in all, my point is, and I ain't budging backwards, is the Bowe of 1992 manages to beat the Schmeling of 1930 in a time machine........ My guess is Schmeling cannot get around a man as big and as skilled as Riddick Bowe... And yes, Bowe's power is also a factor....... Nobody just walks through Bowe's right cross when it lands on the money........

And to hell with this hoopla that Joe Louis had the hardest right hand of all-time..... BOLLOCKS!!!!! Joe Louis was a great rhythm puncher with great power, but several other heavies had better "One-Shot" power than Joe Louis.......... Christ, Ol' Rocco Marciano edges Louis there.......... As does "Liston & Foreman." Yet, Joe Louis was the better all around fighter...... I know that.......

Max Baer was sloppy as all hell....... He was the "Foreman" of the 1930s.......... Big, strong, powerful, scary and lacking skills..... Baer threw every wide from left & right field... He also left himself wide open for precise counter-punches, as well......... Baer won many fights on his size and strength alone; not skills.........

As for my man George Foreman, well, he was a better and more polished fighter at age 40 then he was in his youth at age 25.... No doubt..... However, he was also more bulky and physically slower at age 40........ Foreman is a rare bread of fighter.........

MR.BILL

 

An argument for Bowe would prety much have to hang on the asumption that he could beat Schmeling head to head since Schmeling has the deeper resume.

Lets say that Bowe could beat Schmeling on his best day (never a given).

How often was his best day?

If a fighter is inconsistent he is somtimes going to put in a subpar peformence in his key fights, and that is going to effect his record in any era.

Max Schmelings resume has lost a lot of its lustre over the years because the situation on the ground has been forgotten. Johny Risko, Paulino Uzcdun, Young Stribling and Steve Hamas were not great fighters but they were all at the absolute pinacle of their careers when Schmeling beat them. He nipped them all off at the apex when they were considerd among the top 3 heavyweights, and beating them mattered.

 

Janitor,

YES! But I think we ALL here agree that Bowe had one of the SHORTEST primes from a serious / lineal heavyweight champion...... Of course many lineal title holders have blown the title in 1 or 2 defenses, but hardly anyone has ever dropped off the radar and became a joke like Bowe became by 1996 at age 29........ Bowe was just lazy........ Many fighters are..........
:|:think
Odd as it is, Buster Douglas fits the mold too......... B.D. was lazy and sluggish for most of his career before putting it altogether in Japan against a *****-whipped Mike Tyson on HBO........ The Buster Douglas of Japan at 231 pounds in 1990 was a dangerous mo-fo in the ring....... Too bad it was for only "One" night.........
:deal
And, last but not least, I saw a lot of good heavies with talent who squandered away their careers' during the bogus WBA period of the 1980s........ All them dudes from "Weaver" onward to "Bonecrusher Smith." 1982 to 1987 was a frustrating time for WBA fans.........
:fire

MR.BILL