Marciano's Thoughts on Sonny Liston

I can appreciate this. It's a great thing you picked up on. Most seem him as a mindless crude slugger. For some reason, there's a stereotyping that swarmer sluggers are just brutes and that other more artful boxers are much more imaginative and intelligent. It's nonsense - Marciano was quite a smart ring technician.

 

Listen the same guys that are picking hairs over Marciano are the same guys who overlook Ali's performances over Jones,Cooper, Norton,Alfredo Evangelista, or Holmes vs Snipes or Lewis over Marovic. Its a double standard. There are 2 arguements they use

#1 the size issue...Of the 3 very good Large Heavy's Lewis, and The Klitschko's If we go by the arguement of size,(BIG IS BETTER) Then these are the 3 greatest fighters ever.

#2) White Race? If a White fighter can not be great than forget about #1

#3 Age...well Bernard Hopkins and James Toney 2 past 37 yrs old just did very well in the 2000's and Toney is only 5"10, is 40 and overweight and not a big puncher, yet he held his own with the top heavys...Hopkins is 44 and just upset the undefeated middleweight Champ. Walcott was 37 but was fighting at his peak. Charles was 32, Marciano was 31, Moore was on a 57 fight win streak( marred by a dq and controvercial sd that he reversed 3 times) and between Charles,Moore,Lastarza, and Walcott they beat all of the Best Big men in the division...so they were the best around.

Marciano fought his # 1 contender 5 times

Ali, Holmes,Louis,Frazier and Dempsey and Moore said Marciano would have been the toughest fight for anyone...Frazier rated Marciano as his # 2 HEavyweight Champ right below Joe Louis. These guys were great champions that had in the ring experience and knowledge and that should account for something.

Some guys just dont like certain guys for whatever reason.

 

Layne was 34-1-2 going into the Marciano fight, Layne survivied Bob Satterfield best punches and came back to KO Bob and remember 6"3 Nino Valdez was saved by the bell but lost to Satterfield, Top Heavy 6"2 Bob Baker was KO'd in 1 by Satterfield and 6"3 Cleveland Big Cat Williams 31-1 at the time was Destroyed in 3 rds by Satterfield. I do think the Marciano KO over Layne was so brutal that Layne was never the same but Layne was tough and rugged.

Another factor, a lot of poster call Marciano slow. Rocky did not alway fire in combo's but if you watch his fights. His release was very quick and from odd angles. Watch Rocky beat many fighters to the punch and from angles that break ryhtym fighters momentum with well timed power shots.

 

Yawn....HeGrant's act is getting old and tiresome on Marciano. Ray Mercer defeats Marciano? Get the hell outta here. I just may have to pop in Fergusson-Mercer Tomorrow just for a few laughs. Ken Norton over Marciano? Ken Norton couldn't defeat a puncher if you tied the puncher's hands behind his back...he simply froze against punchers, and matched up horribley against them. Ken Norton could not fight moving backwards.


ps Sonny Liston is still one of the top 3 heavyweights who ever lived in my book.

 

You better get back to the library because that book is missing some pages.

 

Mongoose, you are a clown. Of course Marciano was going to develope a style that allowed him to crowd and succeed against larger men as your clip of him fighting a 37 year old Joe Louis shows. What else was he going to do, out jab them ? This is exactly why he would not match up well against the best of the much bigger men. Love the comparisons with Satterfiled and how you and a few here try to make Rex Layne , who is not a top seventy all time heavyweight, into a major victory for Rocky. Anyone remember that Satterfiled was a light heavy ? You then compare Marciano as a top contender and champion fighting Savold and Cockell, two plodding catchers with a ninteen year old Tyson fighting Quick Tillis, a 6' 3", 215 pound boxer/puncher, as if the experience of the fighter in question and the style of the opponent he was matched up against were irrevelant. Try a little more research and fleshing out of arguments and a lot less self praise. Then maybe you wont embarrass yourself.

SQ: Welcome back, just what the thread needs, another Rocky fanatic ! Ray Mercer would be a stylistic nightmare for Marciano. Ray took the bombs of Tommy Morrison and Lennox Lewis without flinching. He would walk through Rocky like a knife through butter and crush him like he did Morrison. Then again, I'm always figuring the best version. Norton would be more open as Rocky could land one but I think Ken would control him on the outside. I would not bet that one ...

Bummy, it's not a vendetta if someone simply sees something different than you do. I think Marvel (post 286) , Seamus (post 289) and Prince (post 290) all have rational thoughts regarding Rocky . When you take the star struck romance away he was still a great fighter.

 

I don't think it is disparaging to Marciano to agree with this. I rank Rocky very highly but within the realms of reason. A motivated Mercer would be hell for him.

 

I am a Sonny Liston fanatic too, you know.

Sure...The prancing, lethargic Mercer I watched lose almost every round to a 42 year old man...and lose a fight to an old journeyman in which he tried to bribe him to ease up?

He also got badly defeated by an old journeyman, whom he tried to bribe in the middle of the fight. O wait...I am sure you have an exuse for that performance.

Sure, just like he did to Fergusson right?

Attempting to put away an Italian Granite Machine like Marciano is alot different than putting away a China Chin.

O I see, exuses come into play. Marciano never needed exuses. He got the job done. Part of what makes him so special is we never know what it takes to beat him. Its all pure speculation. Let me tell you, Charlie Goldman designed his whole style to fight BIGGER MEN. That is why he taught rocky about fighting in the crouch, making himself a small target, getting underneath the jab, and punching with tremendous leverage. His whole style was designed to fight guys like Mercer(whom he would defintley break down late).

 

And how often did we see that?

 

If you cannot see the Dazzling Boxing Skills Zora Folley and Eddie Machen showcase on film, and the powerful punching cyclone of Cleveland Williams, and the Technical Brilliance coped with lightning like Speed Floyd Patterson demonstrates....Then you have a different taste in Boxing than I.

Liston destroyed all of these men.

 

I do agree that is an issue.

Similarly, I think a Lamon Brewster or Oliver McCall would a problem for him. Also, in an entirely different way, Frank Bruno and Wlad Klit. He just doesn't match up well with guys this big, this strong with either strong whiskers or ridiculously strong jabs coming from far, far away (which doesn't bode well for him against Liston, I understand).

 

SQ, you are very rusty, your argument extremely weak. No need to refresh you on styles make fights or selectively cherry picking fighters worst moments. It is completely predictable for Rocky fanatics to do so since they have so little reality to base their fantasies on.

Seamus is completely correct that any of those guys would have been horrible match ups for Rocky but the fanatics won't agree because to them Rocky defies logic, gravity, physics or common sense.

 

I dont see it as a vendetta but although Mercer was tough, SQ is right, He got beat up by Jesse Furguson and tried to give him a 100grand to lose and Morrison, I really do not think highly of. I saw Mike Bent blow him out in 1 rd and with all his connections get hurt in every fight then Bent got destroyed and ruined by Herbie Hide. Mercer may have stayed the distance but IMO he would have taken a bad beating. I saw Morrison in trouble with Hipp,Yuri Valiuev, Purity and many others so I am not high on him. Mercer was tough but I was never impressed with his dedication or consistancy.

Bob Satterfield was light but KO'd # 1 Heavyweight Contender Bob Baker in 1

Dominated #1 contender Nino Valdez

Ko'd Your Man 31-1 Clevelend Big Cat Williams in 3

I think Joe Louis makes quick work of Morrison KO1 and Mercer would get RSC, it would be worse than he when lost to Vlad and quicker.

by the way He Grant who are your favorite Heavys top 10

 

He grant, you're hard character to figure out. Deep down I think you have a thing against Marciano fans and Marciano supporters. You just feel he was too small and too limited. You don't credit him for his skills. Guys like Frazier and Dempsey can compete with the superheavyweights but Rocky would get pummeled. It's odd how you disparage him but reward other smaller fighters in tough tasks. What's clear is you're inconsistent on the issue... or you just downright have little respect for Rocky's skills.


SQ is right, and I will tell you why. What people don't understand is it's the slick, cute, mover/boxer types that trouble him the most. Not the big lumbering targets that are there to be hit and there for you to make miss. It's the Walcott types, even technicians like Charles and not the Ray Mercer's of the world.

Marciano took on the rugged Rex Layne and knocked 4 of his front teeth out and had him out cold. Layne was consider to be the next Dempsey by some, and Dempsey considered him the most promising HW. He fell apart after Rocky devasted him with a numbing right hand.

The journeyman Savold went toe to toe with him and quit. Matthews tried staying away but got feinted, jabbed, and left hooked to death.

Any guy willing to trade, or be there to be hit for 15 rounds right in front of him without willing to clinch or move was in trouble. Iron-chinned, heart, power, and stamina. Nobody had that combination of attributes like Marciano. Marciano can be limited, but unparalleled in some areas.

 

The Klits are not very good "Large" heavys. "Klitschko" and "Lewis" are two words that do not belong in the same sentence...