Monzon vs. Pavlik

Really? Briscoe didn't seem to have much trouble finding him. (Though what counts as "skill" is controversial.)

 

I didn't score it, to be fair. But it looked like Briscoe was getting in the solider shots and, whilst he had to take a few to get inside, was giving him a working over once he got Mundine to the ropes. To be honest, I thought Mundine looked like a guy trying to be slick but not doing very well: mixing it up too much with the stronger guy, not putting much weight on his punches and generally being a bit sloppy in terms of defence.

 

We were comparing the fighters. I said that Pavlik's work-rate is generally higher than Monzon's. You mentioned the Hopkins fight (presumably as a counter-example), implying that somehow Monzon would imitate Hopkins in slowing Pavlik down, making his work-rate a non-factor. As I said, I'd be interested to know how he'd pull that sort of game-plan off without Hopkins' balance or fleetness of foot, without Hopkins' hand-speed, without the weight advantage Hopkins enjoyed over KP on fight night, and (most importantly of all) without anything like Hopkins' defence or counter-punching ability.

I'm not saying he wouldn't beat Pavlik, but I can't see him doing it like that.

 

Hopkins wouldn't be seen dead backing up in his straight line, or leaning backwards with his head stuck up in the air to avoid a punch.

Monzon's footwork is generally quite static, wide and flat-footed, and he occasionally even reaches with his shots. As you rightly pointed out in a thread a while back, Hopkins is constantly read******g his footwork to give him optimum balance, taking quick steps rather than long plods to ensure that he can move whilst having the base to spring off with a shot at any moment. There's certainly a contrast there.

Feints? I've seen Monzon feint a bit, but I've certainly never see him feint a jab and then throw a left hook to the liver or feint a straight right hand and then land a looping left, let alone knock a durable, elite opponent out with the former combination.

Monzon may be an all-round better puncher than Hopkins, but I'd be surprised if he can walk past an opponent while seeminlgy miles out of range, his hands down cockily, and then suddenly pull out a sweeping upper-cut, land it flush on the button in a fraction of a second and almost knock the opponent down with it.

Maybe I'm just missing these things. If I am, point them out. But at the moment it just sounds like we're inventing a set of mystical intangibles for Monzon that there just isn't evidence for. Maybe it's uncomfortable to think that someone who's probably scraping the bottom of the barrel to be a top 50 Middleweight might give Monzon a hard fight. I'm not trying to demean the guy. He's very good at what he does. It's just a match-up. (For instance, I can't see Taylor getting anywhere with Monzon, but he beat Hopkins twice.)

 

I don't think this goes anywhere near as far as proving the sort of equivalence between Hopkins and Monzon that you're looking for, much less Monzon's superiority over Hopkins, in terms of footwork. Ok, so occasionally Monzon made some small steps to control the distance. Jesus, even Pavlik did that to set up his jabs and straight rights against Taylor, and Pavlik is as plodding as they come. It's a totally different ball game trying to take the play away from someone who's continually walking you down, staying far enough away to make him reach, but remaining well-enough on good enough balance to lead when you want or to slip and counter where necessary. Monzon isn't proven at doing that; Hopkins is.

It's easy to be dismissive, but that doesn't answer the hard questions about Monzon's ability to follow the Hopkins mold. Check out 3:27. Check out 4:29. When have you ever seen Monzon do anything like that, honestly?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJkDi0JpPP4[/ame]

And yet you're the one trying to use Hopkins/Pavlik as some sort of a basis for your case in this thread.