Discuss these heavyweights

Hello arka, your avatar pic is awesome btw -(Liston was a beast -look at the size of that fist!! jeez!)

just for your info - if you have a look on youtube you'll find Sam Langford against Jim Flynn and Bill Lang, Sam McVey vs Battling Jim Johnson and all but one of Jack Johnson's title fights, there's also brief footage of Harry Wills against Paulino Uzcudun - haven't got much time right now but will try to post a bit more info on these guys at some point later suffice to say contemporary rankngs probably go something like:

tier 1: Jack Johnson, Peter Jackson, Sam Langford

tier 2: Sam McVey, Joe Jeanette

tier 3: Harry Wills

tier 4: Battling Jim Johnson, BIg Bill Tate

will post again later - until then keep your hands up and your ass off the deck

 

Who is Louis fighting in that clip?

 

Hello again Arka, thanks for putting that pic up in full size - Clay definately had some balls trying to get Liston mad like he did!!

Pretty accurate summation from Janitor I think - he knows what he's talking about aswell

Between 1903 amd 1908 Jeanette went 2-1-2 versus prime time Jack Johnson, a period during which he also forced a retirement win against the legendary Sam Langford and also won possibly the most arduous fight of all time at heavyweight under Queensbury Rules - the truly freakish 49 round marathon against Sam McVey (and even 9 years later he decisioned Georges Carpentier, if contentiously).

I tend to think Wills reputation was gained off the back of the Dempsey thing

Jack Johnson on Sam McVey:
"Sam McVey was the second best man of my time. The fellow I didn't care to meet was big Sam McVey. Let me tell you about McVey, you think Ketchel was tough. There never was a tough babby like Sam McVey"

Harry Wills on Sam Langford:
He was a real professional. The kind of fighter you'd like to be, but know that no matter how hard you try, you'll never make it. Sam never made a mistake, he always held command and when he knocked me out in New Orleans in 1916, I thought I had been killed. I was knocked out 3 times in my whole career. Twice by Langford and in my last fight by Paulino Uzcudun. I still don't know, except from hearsay, what punches Sam used to knock me out! The first time it happened was 1914. We were supposed to go 20 rounds, when the fourteenth began I was going easy. Sam was in a bad way. I backed him around the ring trying to set him up for a one punch finish. His eye was bleeding and the last thing I remember is having him against the ropes about five feet from his corner. It must've happened right then! Two years later, we were scheduled for another 20-rounder. In the 18th round Sam was in a peck of trouble and once again I tried to set him up for a quick knockout. He finished the round OK and when the bell sounded for the start of the 19th I was after him again. I figured if I could get him in a corner I could finish the fight. That was all I could remember. He must've caught me as I rushed in. I don't know how long I was unconcious but it must've been quite a while. He was a marvelous fighting man, I'd venture to say unbeatable in his prime."

Joe Jeanette on Sam Langford:

"He hit me harder than anyone I ever fought, and I was in there with every good fighter of my time, some who weighed as much as 230lbs."

If I can dig out anything more on any of these guys I will - have four biographies on Jack Johnson and also one on Sam Langford aswell.

PS that clip of Dempsey sparring tate is awesome - Dempsey was electric back then so fast on his feet aswell - he had everything

 

Tate looks ok on film but his record is pretty average, probably shows that the existing film of his superiors is decieving in so far as he looks better than a lot of Johnson, the bit of Will's we have also McVey. Jim Johnson was pretty average too but maybe more effective than Tate. Jeannette, McVea is a pick 'em and Jackson was real class-up there with Corbett and Fitz and ahead of the other fringe guys of that time, Maher, Slavin, Goddard,Sharkey on resumee and indeed H-2-H.

 

Jackson established himself as the best fighter "down under" after the Farnan defeat(due to body-punches)-no mean feat as the some of the world's cream operated there. Lees, O'Donnell, Dooley, McCarthy were good fighters and he than cemented his repuation by beating in America during 1888 Godfrey(USA's best black) Cardiff, a top gate-keeper of the time, McAuliffe then considered a leading contender, and followed this up in 1889 by going to England and beating their champion Smith easily along with many others.He also beat good class fighters in America like Denver Ed Smith around this time.

During this period he was considered as Sullivan's most dangerous rival.
With hindsight he struggled a little in this period with rough limited brawlers like Fallon, Lynch, and Lambert and this manifested itself in his tough draw with Goddard. It should be remembered that Goddard was himself a top contender and at this point probably at the peak of his considerable powers. The draw with Corbett did not hurt his reputation much as he entered that fight with an injury handicap and of course a year later Corbett advertised the form by whipping Sullivan.
In 1892 he defeated his bitter rival and fellow top contender Slavin in England in a kind of world title fight but from that point drink and the good life dissipated his health and skills and he was never a serious force after that.
People sometimes cite Jeffries win over Jackson-Berbick deserves more credit for the Ali fight, and McBride more for the Tyson win. Jackson was finished.
However between 1888-92 he was probably the best or second best HW in the world but never had any real claim to be the outright champion but I should point out that both Sullivan and Corbett shamelessly avoided him and I believe they did so out of the fear that he would beat them. Sully at his best I think would have been too fast and aggressive for Peter but I'd fancy him peak to peak over Corbett, however there are other opinions.