Top 3 fighters since Ray Robinson`s prime ????

Damn you DUO!!! Your getting the splinters out of my ass from sitting on my comfortable fence.....
I must say you make pertinent point on both ali and king carlos.
Ali was definately a fighting machine,an artist and the best heavyweight of all time. You are right in that all the others had longevity and the DESERVED aura of invincibility about them in their primes...

Lets look at one final angle though,I know carlos and muhammed were dominant and long running champs,with all the intangibles and the invincibility aura. But,ray leonard had all these intangibles,and at welter he beat every man he faced,fought and beat three atgs and a fourth at 160. I class the hearns victory as decisive,ray made that win happen,tommy didnt gas in my view. The duran loss was to a guy who was p4p better than anything monzon or ali faced during their entire careers,and i would even take that duran over welter robinson. (sacriledge,i know.) Ray also avenged the loss,despite the weird circumstances of the rematch. An immediate rubber would have been great...So we could arguably say the only thing ray is missing is longevity... Just food for thought...

 

Ali
Leonard
Hearns

 

:good:good:good

Could not agree more.

 

Ali
Duran
Jones

(A case could be made for Whittaker over Jones)

 

Duran
Ali
Leonard

Honorable mention Jones,Whittaker,Chavez wont name any more cause then id end up naming another 5 or 10 guys.

 

I like Sugar Ray Leonard
Tommy Hit Man Hearns
Marvin Hagler and a fourth would be my favorite personality Pernell Whitaker

 

Top3 P-4-P since Ray Robinson:

Manny Pacquiao
Roy Jones
Pernell Whitaker

(Honourable mention probably JC Chavez)

 

All of them elite atgs in my opinion. But no Duran or Leonard:huh

 

Manny is for me one of the best fighters I've ever ever seen and that goes of all time including all the obvious greats right up there with Robby and Hank (almost a modern day Pancho Villa) - I would go as far to say maybe better than Duran and Duran has always been a personal favourite of mine - same goes with a comparison between Roy J and Ray - was real proud of Jones for pulling it off against Ruiz - i know you shouldn't let your heart over rule your head on these things but emotionally I'd always go with Roy over Ray and then Whitaker - well he was just totally old school - up there with Willie Pep - and winning a lot of titles at different weights aswell - and the job he did on Chavez - well I think he took virtually every round and that was against a true true great with, (forgive me can't remember the exact number at the time) but something like 80 straight unbeaten - Pernell was genius and continually made me laugh with all his funny bending at the knees to almost sitting positions what a cocky kid:good

 

Do you feel any differently now that you've had another 24 hours to reflect on this?

For me, something else to consider when comparing Monzon, Ali and Ray is durability and the ability to take a punch. Carlos was dropped once in the last 86 fights and 13 years of his career. (Valdez momentarily knocked him to a knee in the second round of their rematch, and you should have a look at it if you haven't seen it before.) Ali sustained three legitimate knockdowns. He returned the favor to Sonny Banks in the very next round en route to stopping him, and did stop Henry Cooper in the round following 'Enery's knockdown of him. As for the FOTC, a case can be made that Ali actually won the remainder of the final round after getting up.

Ray was floored seven times in his last seven fights. Lalonde, Hearns and Norris could obviously hit, but Camacho's not primarily noted for his power, and Kevin Howard certainly wasn't. (I can forgive Ray his poor showing with Howard, but that knockdown still raised my eyebrow.) By his own admission, it took him three rounds to recover from that early stunner Duran clobbered him with in Montreal.

Why did Hagler not hurt and floor him like this? They were wearing thumbless gloves, which tests showed reduced the impact of a power punch by 25%, and the power of a jab by 50%. These thumbless gloves (which Ray used throughout training for Hagler) were also ten ounces instead of the usual eight ounce variety, so punch impact was even further reduced. Finally, Marv's bread and butter punch was his right jab, reduced to less than half normal impact. Future opponents might have had a chance to adjust. I can't imagine that Hagler could have been in any way expecting or prepared for this new equipment induced impotence.

At his best, Ray had an excellent chin, but was it in the same class as LaMotta's, Ali's, Hagler's, Chuvalo's or Monzon's?

 

Ray had a great chin and heart, but his defense made it so that he was not hit very clean in his prime. When his defense got a little less fluid he was getting knocked down more, but he was still a very good fighter in the late 1980's.

 

I think ray did have a great chin and heart,no doubt. Ray had all the intangibles the others had. Getting knocked down by tommy at 160 or laonde at 168 further confirms his chin/recovery powers/heart.(ditto norris.) All four of these greats had some unique skills,some unique wins and all the intangibles. Where ray loses big time(and the only place he loses.) is longevity.
I would say i am leaning to carlos and ali because of their longevity.
I think its a tribute to rays mercurial greatness that he is being mentioned amongst such class,and that is purely because rays wins over FOUR atgs in benitez,duran,hearns and hagler (who were all near prime.) at welter and middle are bloody hard to ignore. I think leonards best four wins are better overall than the other threes' best four? What say you?

 

It also says a lot that other contributors to this thread have been placing Ray among their top three elites throughout our conversation. Benitez, Duran, Hearns and Hagler are a stunning array of names for anybody to record on their win ledger.

We've enjoyed a good discussion about this, and it would seem we've hashed it out about as thoroughly as we could. I've tossed out some "Devil's Advocate" brew for you to sample and consider, you've digested it, and come across as satisfied with your conclusions.

Monzon's best wins? Griffith twice, Benvenuti twice, Valdez twice, Napoles and Briscoe. Ali's best wins? Muhammad himself has said Liston I was his biggest, while Manila was his greatest fight. After that, probably Foreman, then Norton II.

You said something earlier which intrigued me, when you posited that you'd take the Duran of Montreal over the WW SRR. What does your top 5 P4P look like, as so many consider Robby at 147 to be numero uno? (Some think the pre plane crash Pep was tops, others Langford, while Sam himself thought it was Gans, and others have Greb at the pinnacle. Do you rate Armstrong over all others, or have a more eclectic choice like Ross?)

 

Sorry but Monzon, Napoles, Whitaker, Griffith, Pacquiao, Luis Rodriguez all rank clearly above Jones. :bart

 

Really enjoyed our discussion duo,just goes to show you that when folks discuss with an open respectful midset (and without too much emotion.) that new points of view can be grasped.
I will state that on reflection i will keep in carlos and ali,and just edge out ray. I will do this simply because its bloody hard to have long dominant reigns,and this shows will power over long term adversity. Its a shame leonard falls short in this,because arguably he is the most skilled all round of the four...It just seems that when the natural talent/athleticism of ray declined he was very human,inactive or easily beaten,whereas the other three triumphed even when age,athleticism and ring wear conspired against them...

With reference to montreal,i feel roberto that night was just the most electric,complete fighting machine we have captured on film. For his given natural qualities,attributes and shortcomings ( his lack of 147 size/height/reach,speed deficit etc.) he had every answer to any 147 man we know. He could cut the ring off,dominate the inside,counter punch bigger faster men from the outside,nullify offense by head movement,take body and head shots without real effect,fight 15 rounds at a furious pace/intensity,jab,right hand lead,throw every punch in the book with excellent power,take breaks to get a second wind,know when to turn it up,knew how to neutralise speed,and probably more that im missing. He had all the intangibles in buckets. As good as alis performance was against williams,durans was against a bona fide great who fought back with fury and skill,AND was bigger,faster and stronger than duran.
I think against robinson its a similiar fight,but robinson (though a harder puncher than leonard.) has a lesser defense and was more reckless than leonard. With that roberto an over agressive approach wont work. (even with the tools of robinson.) I see a UD for duran,with maybe a knockdown a piece...

As for my top 5 p4p,as you righlty surmised it is very eclectic,subjective and quite loose really. Hope your sitting comfortably,and can refrain from too much laughter:

1) Manos de piedra.
2) Harold greb.
3) Sammy langford.
4) henry armstrong/ray robinson.
5) muhammed ali/bobby fitz.