Sonny Liston, why is he ranked so highly?

Walcott and Ali had smooth head movement, did they not?

 

Not doubting he has long arms for a second

 

Obviously I'm referring to the first fight.

Your right, a past-prime Frazier is still much better than a prime Patterson. Liston wouldn't be able to KO that Frazier inside of 3 rounds I bet.

 

Beeing knocked down is no an indication of a weak chin. Most of Patterson's knockdowns came because he was off-balance. And this was a style thing. Patterson was certainly no Ali or Marciano in the chin department but his chin wasn't "very shaky". Geting stopped by two Top100 punchers according to the ring and the greatest hw of all time does not mean you have a very weak chin. Just very good opposition.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZPHDVwTZ3g[/ame]

Patterson sure was taking it in this fight...

From a post-fight article:

"If you don't knock a Patterson out early, you don't knock him out. He doesn't have a glass jaw. What he has is poor balance, and in the first few rounds, when he is readily diverted, he doesn't see the punches. It is a type of stage fright, which generally passes after the third round."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1077979/index.htm

 

:good

 

I'm no expert on Liston, but from what I've seen he's a much better-rounded fighter than he's given credit for. At times I get the impression that he's seen as just a more primitive version of Tyson, which seems all wrong. The guy didn't just have one dimension; he was much more multi-faceted. His boxing ability seems to get over-looked. I'll bet he could beat a great Heavyweight over 12 or 15 with that jab alone. And he also looked very quick in his prime: bearing in mind that the guy's arms were so long and thick, he could shoot out that piston of a jab with considerable speed. Definitely a H2H package to be reckoned with.

 

Foreman KO Patterson 1.

What Heavyweight Champ was downed more than Patterson?

I never called it glass, but it's a weak chin. Let's be realistic.

McGrain will never admit he puts the Patterson wins on some weird odd pedestal for Liston because there's real no justification for ranking him #3 or #4 on your Heavyweight list unless you think he's some H2H monster. Here are fighters that have a at least a 50/50 shot of beating. Most should be favorited.

Ali
Holmes
Tyson
Holyfield
Foreman
Lewis (Although I probably favor Liston)
Louis

Lastly, his losses against Ali and in the way he lost should be counted against him. Only 3 fighters quit on the stool to give up their HW belt. Williard (Who was savagedly beating), Vitali (Who had a major shoulder injury. Although he was winning), and Liston who just stopped fighting in somewhat competitive fight. Liston cheated, and was knocked out in the 1st round against Ali in their second fight. Who cares if he threw it... he made the choice to go down. KOing Patterson twice in the 1st round is great, but getting KOed by Ali in the first round puts a damper on your legacy. Forgot Tyson's fall... at least he fought back with some grit. He's a top 10 HW, but he should be no where near anyone's top 5.

Ranking Liston #3 is like Bert Sugar ranking Dempsey #3. You can give a huge credit to his H2H potential, and you could give Dempsey credence for his impact and legacy (Popularity, revolutionary style and impact).

 

Walcott and Charles were smooth, but not great heavyweights imo.At least no in the "generally regarded as top 10" thing i had in mind by great.

Ali was rarely ever smooth with his upperbody work.Herky-jerky reflexive pulling of the head straight back etc..

 

Foreman probably could KO Liston.

Walcott could decision Liston while we're at it. Liston is slower than Foreman (In hand and foot), and worse at cutting off the ring.

Walcott on his best night is an underrated fighter. I think he could upset Frazier as crazy as that sounds. Unpredictable versus predictable.

 

That's like saying a bus has the dimensions of a crane truck, but only misses those two little detail stats height and weight, but otherwise, they're the same. :rofl

If you read up those "dimensions", you'd also conclude that Ezzard Charles is quite nearly as big as Lennox Lewis. Those numbers are meaningless.

Many rave on about Marciano fighting smaller guys, but outside of Williams (who wasn't ranked on either occasion), none of Liston's key victims were significantly over 200lbs.