Sonny Liston, why is he ranked so highly?

Or how about we compare him to one of the few 200+lbs heavyweights he fought, Cleveland Williams, who has a "mere" 80 inch reach but looks at least equal, plus at 6'3 he's a lot taller. Once you see him against a real heavyweight, all of a sudden he's not that giant Godzilla that many seem to be having in their minds:

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It doesn't really matter that much, though. Timing, speed and height are at least as important, if not more important, than wingspan (which is what is listed as "reach").

 

I swear to God with the Liston fever between our best posters; I just feel so passionate about Marciano beating the **** out of Liston. I don't care how crazy that sounds. He's going to get low, use his center of gravity punch all over him. Liston is slower, somewhat ponderous in comparison to some of Rocky's opposition, and has an 84 inch reach. Rocky closes the gap, and I don't care how good of an in-fighter Liston is. He's arms are long, and he's slower, and Rocky's the lower center of gravity that's arguably just as powerful and durable. Imagine him in a closer distance though. It's simple physics. Liston won't make it a jab contest or a out-fighting. He fights like that in spurts when he has to but his inner rage to bully will kick in.

Rocky TKO 14 Liston. :deal

 

Sorry McGrain, i had to! :think

 

Liston has a SHW reach, and SHW shoulders. Valdes was 210lb, if williams wasnt ranked its an injustice, just look at him on film, he has great handspeed and power, good skills, is huge for the time, strong, and then you have Henry Cooper ranked no3 in the world

 

Foreman has heart, durability, and a power edge. I think Foreman has the better chance of KOing Liston. Foreman has a better track record of not being KOed. :yep

Compare those fighters. Young is taller and longer. What Super-heavyweight mover/slick-ster did Liston ever beat? And that Foreman is as comparable as the Liston that fought Ali. You know the guy who was overconfident, nearly alcoholic, and an age we don't know of. Hey, at least he was confident. Foreman was mentally distraught fighter.

It seems arbitrary to just say he has a better track record.

No, I don't remember settling. I remember agreeing to disagree. But you're wrong. Watch the combos in Frazier vs Foreman I and compare them to Liston vs Valdes or Williams. Liston hits hard and his opposition can't fight back. His combinations are so ponderous and slow. Maybe the allusion of long arms, but you can use a stop-watch. Foreman had faster hands.

So you're choosing not to pick his best weight for who's benefit? The lazier champion Liston was 215. But he was better suited at 208-212 realistically speaking, no?

 

The quality of the first Sonny Liston - Cleveland Williams fight is not the best though.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO6gqaQ5uC4[/ame]

Nice moves from Liston at around 2:35.

Liston had long arms but the incredible 84" reach measurement has as much to with the size of his hands and his broad shoulders also.

 

1. It would be a war, not sure how it goes

2. He also could get blasted out like he did against

3. Liston is a better boxer than Foreman, he is better defensively and he has far better shot selection and his timing is far better. He can also actually counter punch

4. Maybe, I wouldnt agree with your pick though

 

Getting knocked down does not indicate a weak chin. You can be knocked down due to many reasons.

 

He had a huge wingspan. His actual reach was quite long, but his lack of height (for a HW) kind of deters that, not to mention the fact that his foot- and handspeed wasn't impressive, despite him being a small guy compared to most champions after him.

For instance. Against Clay, who had a puny 80" reach, he was completely outclassed in the jab department. That shows you how little wingspan means compared to height, speed and timing. I will say that his timing wasn't bad though. But compared to other top jabbers like for instance Holmes, Lewis, who have those four factors (speed, height, timing and wingspang) in spades, i think he'd easily be outjabbed. Of course, he could do other things to drag them in deep waters, but that's another story...

Yes, he has very wide shoulders. Great. But that doesn't change the fact that he's short and somewhat slow (compared to championship level), which makes the "WOW 84 INCHES #&*$@(*$" a very deceiving fact.

Valdez had one foot in retirement... hell, half a foot in the grave, by the time him and Liston fought. The Cuban was losing to guys like Charley Powell and Alonzo Johnson and retired a grand total of four months after Liston beat him.

As for Williams, he didn't look bad, but he lacked durability (got knocked out by Satterfield and twice early against Liston).

You argue that he should've been ranked, but on what basis? Was it because he beat Howie Turner? Or perhaps beating Ernie Cab did it for you?
Cooper had beaten Folley and London around that same period. His ranking was well earned.

 

I'd say that a prime Liston may have had a slight advantage in handspeed over Foreman.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQZkFNdPkdI[/ame]

Wayne Bethea was the kind of a guy who went the distance with everybody. Liston was the only man to stop him and he did it in just one round by knocking several of his teeth out.