Sonny Liston, why is he ranked so highly?

But Foreman didn't have much of an amateur career as he started late. Liston, was ducked for years still had less fights than Foreman did when he got his chance against Frazier. You're looking at the first few early opponents.

Foreman also had 30 more fights, well into his 40's. It's harder to maintain that KO percentage when you're fighting more often. Foreman's KO percentage was in the 90's before he retired in 1977 I believe.

 

Liston lost 3 points for low blows in the Machen fight, it was frustrating for him but not as close a fight as the score cards indicate.

Machen beat all the post-Marciano contenders save Patterson in Jackson, Valdes, Baker, and even a pair over Maxim for good measure. He also gave Doug Jones and Quarry their first losses. He went the distance against great punchers like Johnson, Foley, Floyd and of course Liston, while Ingo was the only fighter to stop him in his prime with a flash knockout. On the decline, he lasted 10 with prime Frazier. Is it possible he's getting sold a tad short in contrast to Jimmy Young? I think so. Better puncher than Young too, known for an excellent right hand, first fighter to drop and stop Valdes during his time as a top rated fighter.

 

But when guys like Jacques Royer, Roy Harris, and Rademacher knocking you down, it says something.

Can you name 5 HW Champions that had a worse chin than Patterson? What HW champion was down more?

His chin just wasn't good. Not glass, but a little shaky. There's no way around it.

 

And Liston was taken the distance by a fighter with a losing record. So what?

What losers? Forte?

Yeah, Peralta want the distance. He was a cutey slickster

Yet Liston came out more technically and fundamentally sound.

As for how hit harder. Holyfield said nobody hit him harder than Foreman did.

Does Liston even hit harder than Lewis or Tyson? It's very close. I think Foreman's power is obviously a little better. Because we recognize Liston is a better, sharper, more technical puncher. No?

 

Patterson is a terrific boxer. He's got stellar defense, and he is very elusive. He's incredibly fast, and a solid puncher. It's not easy to get to that chin for most opponents, and it's not easy to keep him down as he can get away.

If Patterson fought like Chuvalo... maybe you would have a case.

Can you list me names of HW champs that were downed more? How about your list of HW Champs with worse chins. If his chin isn't weak, then it's certainly weak among HW champions. No?

 

It's a style thing. You know we go do this for every opponent that every fighter ever faced. Stop it.

Ok, I won't deny this.

It went great for Liston, because Liston gets overrated on ESB Classic so he wins almost all the tough fantasy fights he gets thrown into.

Now, Foreman lost to Holyfield (A better P4P fighter than Liston. And someone you could argue deserves to be ranked ahead of Liston) but Foreman gave a good showing. Although Foreman was 42 years old. When Liston was in his late 30's he was getting knocked out by Leotis Martin. Not quite the same achievement, I know.

Certainly, but I don't know why you went on to try saying Liston was more powerful. I already admitted he was a better technical puncher.

 

Like Frazier (twice) or Norton ?

 

Oops, sorry.

I've just re-capped your dialogue with Pete.