Sonny Liston, why is he ranked so highly?

He was knocked down and saved by the bell. I'd say that passes as being nearly KO'd.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=OxcrAAAAIBAJ&sjid=BJ0FAAAAIBAJ&dq=johansson%20london&pg=5777%2C3356177

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...FAAAAIBAJ&dq=johansson london&pg=5435,3092827

 

Alright.

I have to disagree with you there.

First of all, i think Bruno has a longer REAL reach than Liston does. Bruno is two or three inches taller than Sonny and has exceptionally long arms:

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Second, Bruno's timing of the jab was outstanding. It was so good in fact, that no one ever outjabbed him during his entire career.

So, of the four characteristics (reach, height, timing and speed), Bruno has 3 out of 4 in spades.

On top of that, Lewis vs Bruno wasn't the whitewash the Clay vs Liston was, in their respective jab-departments. Although Bruno landed more, he ate plenty of jabs as well.


Many will disagree with me, but i think the '92 Bruno would definitely hold his own against Liston when it comes to jabbing.

I think Mercer is a better example if you want to make the argument that Liston could out-jab Lewis. Mercer is quite similar to Liston.

 

Interesting that Angelo Dundee was the cut man in the
Liston vs Besmanoff fight that went 6 rounds and stopped due to Besmanoff's bad cut.

Angie saw Liston in 1959 up close & personal.

"Besmanoff absorbed a barrage of punches in the sixth and was bleeding from several bad gashes over his eyes. The referee stopped the bout between rounds and it was scored a seventh round technical knockout." (Associated Pess)

 

Fair enough, Charles was another one who was real smooth aswell.

Yes, he was herky-jerky, although always amintained balance well.

 

Though Liston might be prone to being slightly overrated at times it is important not just to judge him on his title winning fight and lack of defences. On his way to the title, somewhat similiar to Tyson, he was a wrecking machine, going through contenders like a bull. Although lacking in big name opponents, none of them were bums either and I think you had to be around at the time (which I wasn't) to really appreciate the reputation he had and the way he obliterated the contenders.

Perhaps he is one of those fighters who is at his best when he is hungry, when he won the title, and met Ali, this is the period that causes people to question his standing. I think his career is fairly comparable to Tyson's, and I would personally have him a few places above Tyson scraping the top ten.

 

But ranking a fighter on the grounds of beating in aging Valdes, Machen, and KOing the HW champ in 1 round twice is? While many of our top posters seem to love Liston (Muchmoore, Suzie Q, you) ESB still ranked Foreman ahead of Liston. And with good reason. He certainly did a better job proving his greatness.

I take in skills/abilities and pros/cons too. But that's one of the minority criteria.

If that wasn't the only point I made on the power issue than I would agree that that would be a slipup, but it wasn't.

I don't know scroll back. It's all in the thread.

People are wrong. Foreman's combinations are faster. He often throws slow winding clubbing punches, though when brutally finishing an opponent off. Not the greatest technique, but these men are generally already too badly hurt.

Liston sometimes throws straighter punches, and that gives the appearance of faster punches. When he throws those clubbing winding punches like he did against Williams. It looks slow as hell.

Look at Liston's body. He probably has a high bone-density. He's very bulky, and his combination puncher looks cumbersome at times.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO6gqaQ5uC4[/ame]

6:12

 

Ali was as smooth as butter. That's why he's so graceful to watch dancing. Walcott was herky jerky - he had the unpredictable motion and movement. Ali was very rhythmic, and on his toes. Some of you guys always get this wrong.

 

He was a beautifully smooth mover, no doubt there.His upperbody angles/defensive work was not imo, and post-prime it was downright ugly(though still often effective of course).

 

Intreresting article from another site: Really sums it up nicely, prior to Frazier Foreman's resume was lacking to put it nicely and few gave him any chance of taking the title because his previous competition was so questionable....even Joe who showed up for the fight ill prepared and overweight. Hardly the fear Liston inspired as he worked his way through top 10 regulars and avoided sluggers to finally get his title shot and to argue otherwise is just preposterous.


In October of 1972, three months prior to fighting Frazier, Foreman stopped 3-14 Terry Sorrell in two rounds. It's a wonder that Foreman was only 3-1 underdog versus Frazier. Going back to the beginning of Foreman's career, there is nothing, including his Olympic Gold Medal to suggest he had anything for Frazier.
In August of 1969 Foreman fought tough Chuck Wepner in his fourth pro bout. Wepner at the time was 18-4-2, but was more known for being one of Joe Frazier's toughest sparring partners. Although Foreman should be commended for taking on a toughie like Wepner in only his fourth fight, there was nothing he showed that in a couple years he'd be ready for the reigning champ, Frazier.
Two fights after beating Wepner, Foreman stops journeyman 7-11-1 Cookie Wallace. After beating Wallace, he stops "Big" Vernon Clay in two rounds who is 8-3 at the time. In his next fight after Clay, he is taken the distance for the first time as a pro by 13-15 Roberto Davila. In his next 3 fights he stops Leo Peterson, Max Martinez, and Bob Hazelton who were a combined 12-16. Next he is taken the distance by 19-22 Levi Forte. Think anybody is yet whispering, "Frazier better beware of George Foreman?" Hell NO! It wasn't even an after thought!
After going the distance with Forte, Foreman stops 3-4 Gary Wiler, 10-14-3 Charlie Polite, and huge Jack O'Hallaran who is 18-5-2. After stopping these three trial horses, Foreman fights long time light heavyweight contender Gregorio Peralta 78-5-8. Peralta has just recently started to fight at heavyweight. Peralta takes Foreman the distance and loses a unanimous decision. Foreman won this fight on youth and sheer brute strength. The Foreman-Peralta fight was on the under card of the Frazier-Ellis championship fight. My father took me to this fight in February of 1970. The fights were at Madison Square Garden. I remember leaving after the Frazier-Ellis fight, nobody, but nobody was even considering that Foreman was ever going to be the one to take Frazier's title shortly down the road. In fact it was just the opposite. Most felt that Foreman would be nothing more than a heavy bag with eyes if ever matched with Frazier.
In Foreman's next five fights, he scores 5 KO's. The only name even worth mentioning of those five is George "Scrapiron" Johnson 14-15-4. Johnson is known for taking Frazier to a decision, and losing to Jerry Quarry. After scoring the fifth KO in his previous five fights, Foreman fights tough contender George Chuvalo 59-15-2. Chuvalo at this time is four years removed from losing a 15 round decision to former heavyweight champ Muhammad Ali, and three years removed from being stopped by current champ Joe Frazier. Going into the Foreman fight, Chuvalo has never been knocked off his feet. Something no fighter ever accomplished. Foreman goes onto stop Chuvalo in three rounds, one less than it took Frazier.
After beating Chuvalo, Foreman stops highly touted at the time Boone Kirkman 22-1 on the Frazier-Foster under card. Next, trial horses Mel Turnbow 8-10, and Stamford Harris 15-23-1 become Foreman knockout victims. After Harris, Foreman fights a rematch with Gregorio Peralta 83-6-8 and stops him this time in the 10th round in Oakland California. Again, there has not been one mention at this time that Foreman could possibly be the fighter to dethrone Frazier. Not in the paper, not in the Boxing publications, not by anybody?
After stopping Peralta in the rematch, Foreman wins nine in a row by stoppage. Among those victims are fighters who at best can be considered trial horses/journeymen. Fighters such as LeRoy Caldwell 11-8-1, Luis Pires 18-7-1, and Miguel Paez 42-16-13. In his next fight after Paez, and his last fight before challenging Frazier, Foreman destroys the infamous 3-14 Terry Sorrell in two rounds.
Of all the fighters and so called contenders that Foreman fought on the way up, only Chuvalo fought for the heavyweight title. And that was four years prior to him facing Foreman. As much as I love the finished version of George Foreman, the pre Frazier version of him really didn't beat any fighter of note other than Chuvalo. Foreman who held a gaudy 37-0 (34) record heading into the Frazier fight had a record comparable to the undefeated Shannon Briggs. No way anybody but Foreman, his handlers, and Cosell thought Foreman could win, let alone actually pull it off.

 

could not agree more, once you start disecting a career you find a familiar time honoured recipe of grooming. However i measure greatness on the record at world title level especialy on the guys who were preserved especialy for the title like foreman clearly was. Often behind all great fighters is a masterpiece of matchmaking ensuring there is maximum miles on the clock when the money rolls in as champion. there is no shame in this. The name of the managerial game is making sure odds are in the prospects favour so he can develop.
As a defending champion liston fell a long way short for whatever reason. its no good saying liston deserves to be top ten ATG on h2h basis or ANY other basis. as a champion Liston could not be counted on to deliver his full potential when he got there as topten atg should.

 

Yet he achieved less. Sounds like too much of "you" in the equation.

And the forum says that Foreman is greater than Liston in ranking. So what?

What?

His combinations are slow and cumbersome. He's a bulky fighter, which is why he is slower. Foreman puts everything into a shot, but when he fires a combo off he's faster. Watch Liston finishing Liston off in their second fight. It's a slow combo.

 

By the defending Championship criteria Foreman is not that far ahead than, managing only one noteworthy defense against Norton in his prime before being upset by the older Ali. And of course his embarressing reign as lineal Champion in the 90s where he ducked the top tier contenders and managed a controversial defense against unranked Shultz and Savarese before ironically dropping the title to Briggs under similar circumstances.

Liston had a long hard road to the Championship where he had to beat tough Norton level contenders to just get his shot while Foreman got a pretty easy walk against prospects like Kirkman and falling stars like Chuvalo. Not a fair comparision.