Sonny Liston, why is he ranked so highly?

But the point is how Machen compares specifically to Johansson at that time. Machen was considered no better or more important an opponent than Johansson would've been; and a fight with Johansson would've been considered an eliminator all the same.

 

I meant to his legacy. After losing to Patterson twice, Johansson was not the same man that he had been on his way up. He was unimpressive in his comeback fights outside of the KO over Dick Richardson, a British-level heavy. Does a win over Johansson at that point do much for Liston's reputation? I wouldn't say so. It's not going to make anyone change their minds on Liston's all-time rankings among heavyweights.

All of the heavyweights at the time were criticized but despite his setbacks Machen often got good reviews. He was quite highly regarded and it was felt that Patterson was avoiding him.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Ig8wAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FBAEAAAAIBAJ&dq=patterson%20liston%20machen&pg=5093%2C4483637

But Ali hardly beat the name contenders of his day on his way up. He didn't fight Folley, he didn't fight Machen, he didn't fight Terrell, he didn't fight Williams. The most notable contenders he fought were a former light heavy Doug Jones whom Ali struggled against, and Henry Cooper who knocked him down. The rest were fringe contenders at best.

Liston gets some credit for beating Valdes but not that much. The reason is because Valdes was once the number 1 ranked contender in the world so it's a notable name if nothing else. Miteff, Powell and Alonzo Johnson were finished by the time they fought Ali even worse than Valdes was, atleast Valdes beat Brian London afterwards before retiring due to eye trouble.

 

Even before Johnasson came into the picture, Patterson and Cus were accused by the media of ducking both Folley and Machen when it was announced he would defend against Harris instead of either of them. They had been deserving contenders for some time prior and were already considered to be "avoided." Cus claimed they weren't marketable opponents and he was being a smart businessman though Harris had never fought on tv before and wasn't ranked nearly as high, he was only built up after it was announced he would be fighting for the title. Of course Patterson would go on to face Machen and all comers after losing the title to Liston.

Patterson and Johansoon were tied up with each other when Liston was still establishing himself in 58. Johansson also said he was looking to win some European fights and titles after the brutal Patterson Trilogy before he would consider Liston's title, but after nearly getting koed he retired. There just wasn't any means for a Liston/Johansson fight, the timing just wasn't there.

 

there was not much more liston could have done as a contender. It was simular to marciano waiting for walcott and charles to complete their rematches. Unlike marciano as a champ sonny disapointed. As ex champ im not convinced liston was as ambitious to regain the title. IMO he was happy to go on tour with his name. He was winning fights but I get the sence he had a "been there and done that" atitude.

 

Basically what i was saying Bummy is that although Liston in the end is known as a quitter,prior to the Ali fights there was no indication that he was.Whatever is said about Williams he could bang and when you watch those two fights Liston shows all the appetite in the world to walk through the Big Cat's shots and knock him out. At that point there could never be any question that he lacked heart.

 

Liston beat Machen in September 1960. Johansson had only just lost the title in the previous June. The SI article I posted was from a month before the fight; the Ring rankings were from a few months after it.

 

Johansson was still a recently deposed ex-world champ, and as it turns out, a future HOFer. The only other fighter to have ever beaten him would've been the world champ Patterson. Beating someone like that, even at that stage of his career, would've been a big addition to Liston's legacy and (assuming he beat him quickly/impressively) would've made a big statement prior to challenging Patterson.

 

True but like Chris Pontious pointed out, how many fights was he really challenged and I know a lot of people would say Big Cat and Williams was a big muscular guy but in light of the fact that Big Cat was KO'd by Satterfield in 3 in a dominating loss and although Satterfeild at 174lbs could punch, he did not have the best whiskers, so how do we measure

 

I'm getting tired of people bringing up the Satterfield loss everytime when it comes to Cleveland Williams. Yes, Williams had around 30 fights at the time (comparable to an amateur career which Williams never had) but he was just 20 years old and took the fight on a short notice. And Satterfield could hit.

Compare that to 28 year old Corrie Sanders who was in his prime when he was knocked out cold by Tony Tubbs's inferior, even more overweight brother Nate Tubbs. Didn't stop him from KO'ing Wladimir in just 2 rounds.

From 1955 to 1965, Cleveland Williams was only knocked down by one man and that was Sonny Liston.

 

Yea but he only had 12 fights from Satterfield to Liston and the list of opponents was very weak the best opponent on the list was Frankie Daniels and Big Cat fought him 2 times Daniels was 29-13-2 and 32-14-2 and he went the distance with Big Cat on both occasions,

Daniels was also Ko'd in a prior fights to Satterfield and Loyd Marshall and was KO'd in 1 by Liston in the fight after Daniels fought Williams. All I am saying is (Was the Williams KO overated win by Liston) I think it was a good win but overated.

As far as Corrie Sanders Nate Tubbs was in decent shape for that fight and landed a great shot and caught Sanders cold, Sanders was taken lightly by Wlad (big Mistake)

I saw Sanders blow out Burt Cooper KO 3, Levi Billips KO1(who went the distance with Lennox Lewis, Calos Deleon KO1, Michael Spott KO1,Mike Williams KO1, Al Cole KO1,James Prichard KO1, Bobby Czyz KO 2,

Now Corrie tended to go into fights with zero training, He did no jogging for the Rahman fight and had Rahman down and staggered before Corrie ran out of gas and was stopped on his feet.

Sanders conditioning was erratic but a lot of smart fight people kept there fighters clear of Sanders a Fast Southpaw with Power...3 Bad words

 

Anyone can get caught nice 2 right hands by Nate

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6_BPrWdN4[/ame]

 

But Corrie KO'd some durable guys

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hQtC6_XEzg[/ame]