Certainly not by you. I don't think anyone else on the forum ranks him above both those men... except for maybe that Holyfield fan. I can't remember his name.
I was thinking about this match up on the bus today. I was also wondering if Patterson isn't underrated particularly p4p. With the benefit of extra weightclasses these days he couldda potentially challenged for honours in 4 divisions, 168, 175, 200, HW.
I don't like this idea that Ali cracked two elite chins by "as a retult of stamina and outlasting". Ability in the punch and consistantly landing them would be the leading criteria I would say. Holyfield might - might - crack harder than Ali for one punch, but then both pale in comparison to a hitter like Shavers. Both are better composite punchers for me, and that's my point.
Its easy to remember him getting knocked down but only Ingo, Liston and Ali stopped him. You'd have to sense that Holy knocking him over is a real possible, maybe even probable but Patterson getting back up is close to a certainty.
The only advantage Floyd has here is in handspeed. Patterson stood square on ,and relied on his gloves to block punches, his handspeed was phenomenal for a heavyweight, probably the fastest ever,and his combinations were precise and accurate.His single shots ,leaping left hooks etc, were less so. His jab was average ,and his foot speed did not match that of his hands. Floyd had plenty of courage ,but he is up against a guy who has just a bit more in every department except hand speed. Holyfield had a great chin ,was very strong, decent puncher,and had bags of stamina. He beats Patterson ,possibly by late stopage.
To provide even more clearity, do you think that perhaps there are other factors that play a role in a man not finishing a fight, besides his ability to take a punch in the face from the other guy delivering it?
For every KO there are other factors, yes. But in the main one will always be punch and punch resistance.
I disagree. Floyd is also better defensivly and technically. And he has faster feet than Holyfield. I don't think there was ever a hw with more courage than Patterson, getting into the ring with Liston after beeing blown out in one round isn't topped by any other hw. Holy is stronger, more durable and bigger but that's all he has on Patterson. Enough to beat him but I'd pick Patterson in a very close one - and yeah, I know I'm the only one.
In the rather lengthy careers of Oscar Bonavena and George Foreman, both men's chins have held up to fighters with a far greater track record of knocking men out, or forcing stoppages than Muhammad Ali. For me, this is evidence that there was more involved in Ali's stoppages of them, than just his power, composite punching ability, their chins, etc.... That is why I do not use these fights as a beacon for measuring Ali's punching ability to Holyfield's.. Frankly, I have a hard time imagining Ali flooring Ray Mercer or Riddick Bowe and Knocking out Douglas with a single shot. I CAN however envision Evander stopping a younger, less skilled Foreman or even Bonavena in similar fashion to the way that Ali did, because of stamina issues or other factors..
The only thing that prevents Ali from being a fighter with a history of cracking at least one elite chin before he met Foreman is if you dismiss his stoppage of Bonovena as suspect. The only reason he doesn't have two elite chins post-Foreman is if you try to write of that one, too. You say that Ali can't be credited for the knockouts over Bonovena and Foreman because nobody else knocked them out. That's crazy. Well if you take away the best two chins that any fighter cracked they are obviously going to compare less favourably. Can you imagine Ali knocking out Foreman or Bonovena? So Holyfield can be credited with the ability to KO Bonovena and Foreman, but Ali can't?!
I think it would be a good fight for however long it lasts but sooner or later Holy is going to get Floyd in trouble. And when he does I think he would finish him. Floyd's only chance would be to avoid any real danger and possibly take a close decision. That's not an impossibility by the way. Patterson is a very good fighter. I'm not demeaning him at all. In many ways I feel he is not given the credit he deserves but in Holyfield he is meeting an opponent who does everything he does but a little better as well. Plus Holy is bigger, stronger and hits harder...not to mention a world class set of whiskers as well. Holyfield by late round stoppage.
That's basically what happened to Foreman against Young in the last round. With Ali, he was just better and got off a shot of punches that had Foreman down. But Foreman got up. The left hook against Bonavena was a perfectly placed punch. But it wasn't like that punch got him the KO. The walking around the ring stalking after Bonavena certainly helped.