Marciano in other eras with out the respectfull champs.

Not entirely accurate. Maricano started fighting at 190 and cut his way down to that 179-181 range for a handful of fights over a very short period of time. Sorry, but your wording seemed to suggest he bulked up over time as he got older which was not the case by any means. He always trained down to cut weight.

On the flip side, he weighed 190-192 when he faced a string of big physical fighters like Simmons, Shkor, and Wilson. That's 3-5 lbs away from the early 80s limit right there. Adding a few pounds in healthy muscle with the nutrition of the 80s doesn't seem like outrageous fantasy to me, especially for the promised big bucks of the divison's most prestigious division. Were not talking about a 5'5" career 170ish fighter like Qawi.

Maricano was not really stocky by modern standards, and he wouldn't be making quite an outrageous leap as Spinks either. Seriously, Spinks began his career in the 160 range and claimed to naturally walk around at 180 out of shape when started training for a heavyweight run, about 30 or 20 lbs less than Rocky out of training. He was naturally a very very long lanky guy, which are actually harder to add healthy muscle mass to if you have any kind of experience in body building.

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Really, Walcott and Charles had a better jab than most big heavies of the 80s, accuracy and speed is more dangerous than a long arm. And yes, Cockell was an easier defense after a layoff and facial surgery. Nothing more to it than that, it was the easier comeback fight period.

 

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Marciano would simply be a cruiser today. His frame was tiny. A weight gain of 20 pounds would make him more stubby and less mobile. He would be a sitting duck for most of the top-15 fighters today.

In a one-off affair, he would surprise many here with who he could beat. But him making a career in even today's heavyweight arena (much less the 1990's) is a bit implausible. Giving up that much size over that many fights would lead to a spotty record at best. And I know he was outweighed in the majority of his fights in the 50's, but this time around he would be outweighed by 30 and 40 pounds almost everytime out. It would catch up to him.

 

I agree. Rocky did not have the type of frame to carry an extra 20 pounds. If you want a more modern example, was Frazier better at 205 or 218? 205 of course, and that's only a 13 pound spread.

How about Ali. Was he better at 210-212, or 225? 210-212 of course, and we are only adding 15-17 pound here.

Rocky with an extra 20 pounds would be 207, and too much of it would be fat.

Having said that, what's your take on Marciano's power, Seamus?

 

Ali was beter at 210 than 230. frazier was beter at his lighter weight. in fact all fighters before they started employing nutritionalists were beter lighter. thats a fact.
its well known that guys used to say "if he comes in at ...hes in shape" but in modern times that is no longer the case with heavyweights who employ nutritionalists from the world of body building.
as mongoose says marciano was not building up he was cutting less off when he fought bigger guys. all guys boild down then. it was the only way to be fit as posible. they trained for workrate unless they were against a fat dude.
marciano could do anything frazier did. ali himself said marciano was beter than frazier.
marciano without a nutritionalist was naturaly bigger than holyfield, moorer and toney. its not crazy to sugest marciano could not match frazier or holyfields acheivements in the ring.

 

I know he gets blown into a mythical creature by many... however, as the old adage goes, where there's smoke there's fire. Too many contemporaries stated too many times that everything Marciano threw hurt no matter where it hit you. He applied great power in his unique way.

I don't qualify him a great one-shot artist (almost no great heavyweights are), but he was what I would label a great "power/attrition" type. He beat down opponents like they were pieces of meat getting tenderized and he had such terrific stamina that he never stopped or weakened his attack.

 

I didn't say he "bulked". I said if he could make 179 when he was 26 years old then I assume it wouldn't be a great difficulty for him to make 175 under today's weigh-ins. Men with bigger frames than his have. Cutting weight is increasingly easier these days because you have 24 hours to rehydrate yourself and to put on 10-15 lbs of weight. I don't buy the whole thing about Marciano being this 220 lb monster who just cut down to 180-190, he was described as plain out of shape at 207. Draining weight is a completely different process than getting down to your best fighting weight which is what Marciano did.

Marciano also weighed 180 pounds when facing the 6'6 Carmine "Bingo" Vingo who was the biggest test for him at that point in his career. I guess he just trained less for lesser opponents like Simmons, Shkor and Wilson were. He was down to 184 when fighting Joe Louis.

Adding a "few pounds" is not the same as adding 30 to 40 pounds which Marciano would have to do in order to compete on even terms as far as weight goes (not height or reach) against the modern era heavyweights. I suppose he could go up to 200 pounds but 210-220 would take away from his greatest strength over today's heavyweights which was his stamina.

A tall, lanky fighter does not have as much trouble adding muscle than an already stocky, strong fighter. Adamek is taller than Marciano but of similar stature, always walked around at around 200 lbs, cut weight to make 175 until the weight cut became too difficult and began to take away from his performances. He moved up to his natural weight and showed his best form until adding 20 lbs of muscle to compete at heavyweight. Adamek, known for his stamina, ran out of gas against Jason Estrada in his last fight.

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Not a huge difference despite Spinks being 25 pounds heavier in the other picture. That's because he was 6'3.

 

Marciano would have trouble making 175. It would definitely affect his performance. He would cut down to weight when in training. He would really have to drain himself. Lastly, I believe in one of the fights he was 179-180 he was sick with the flu and fighting. Might have been against Lowry, not 100% but I remember seeing it from the Life Story of Marciano DVD.

 

He would have trouble making weight and it would take something away from him. But he could make it, that's my point. I wouldn't even count out the possibility of him fighting at 175 for the first few years of his career until making weight becomes too much of a hindarance.

I'm a firm believer that trying to make weight or add weight takes away from the fighter. You focus on cutting weight or adding muscle, not conditioning or improving your boxing ability, it has been proven over and over. In a recent interview, although I'm not entirely sure if it was legit or not, Joshua Clottey blamed his lack of stamina and power on him struggling to make 147, yet he still tries to make the weight. That's because he'll have a huge size advantage over his opponents, remember when he came in at 170 against Diego Corrales (a huge super featherweight)? This is a fighter who would have been a middleweight or a light heavyweight in the 1950's.

Rocky may have been sick with the flu in the Lowry fight but he was devastating in the Vingo fight and put the poor 20 year old into coma. He weighed just 180 pounds.

The point I'm trying to make is that while I'd favour Marciano over any of the 1980's group even if he were to fight at 180-190, because that's the weight he fights best at, he'd have difficulty dealing with a size disadvantage in each fight and it'd be taxing to his body. Can he go 49 fights without being affected by it? I'm not too sure.

 

It's interesting to wonder. I think he's from a rare breed of competitors. So I don't doubt the likelyhood, nor I do I doubt that he couldn't have added 10-15 lbs of muscles to his frame and have still been effective. With 12 rounds instead of 15 that may work out more for him. I can't discredit the thought till seeing it. It can't ever happened, so I suggest it's possible. I agree with your theory on fighting at your natural weight and most comfortable weight. Pac seems to be doing that, and he seems to be able to beat bigger fighters. The gap is not as large, but the way he does it... who knows.

 

I do not know how much he could have added and stayed effective. He was slope shouldered and already had pretty big, very strong legs. However, he looked pretty lean in his fights. You never saw any extra flesh on the guy unlike Frazier who was always a bit thicker.

 

I'd say that he could compete at the same weight that Frazier did at most. Saying that he could have ever matched the modern heavyweight for size is wishful thinking.

Frazier was in great shape at around 200 pounds but anything more was excess weight and it affected his performances. People shouldn't underestimate how important it was to fighters like Marciano and Frazier to be in peak shape. That was the edge they had over their opponents.

 

Paq is able to excel because he brings exceptional SPEED and POWER up with him. Rocky would not.

What is the difference between a great fighter in Marciano at 187 fighting a very good man forty pounds heavier and a exceptional middleweight like Monzon fighting a Marciano twenty five pounds heavier ? How many would give Monzon a shot ? How many would give Robinson a shot ? Why is Rocky the only great fighter who defies all physics and logic to his hardcore fans ?

Surely Rocky was no greater or more devoted or dedicated or had more heart than these two .

I feel in many ways Marciano was a great 187 pounder like Hagler was a great 160 pounder. Neither one had the frame to put on lots of extra weight and excell unlike a Hopkins or potentially a Dempsey (who was long and lanky) .. They were what they were, were great at it and should be measured against like kind. This works for Marvin as the middleweights have a cap of 160 but Rocky is in a division where he is extremely small, short, short armed and light plus he had a power game. It's an incredible long shot that stands in direct contradiction to all proven history of both the sport and sports in general.

I personally feel because of this the heavyweight champions should not just be rated straight up but pound or pound. Pound for pound Marciano is in my top five for sure.

 

Out of 49 fights, he only weighed under 180 about 4 times. Considering he was already training down very hard, I just can't see him being much of a factor at 175 for very long and there is no way he is making a home at cruiser.

In regards to the subject at hand, Witherspoon fought as low as 188 and hovered a little over 200 when he was in great shape, only adding fat to his man boobs by the time he fought Holmes and Page.

In Holmes era, Marciano would only be looking at the 195 limilt and would most likely hover around 200 lbs which isn't a stretch from his prime weight of 184-189. Adding 30-40 pounds of muscle would be needlessly absurd, this is also Adamek and Holyfield's failing. They just seem hell bent on out gunning bigger men for some reason.

And again "no" Bulk is easier to add on a smaller frame. This is not always the case but it is the norm.