IMO the best footage of charles is the two wins he had just before facing marciano. The wins over satterfield (who kod big cat) and walace (who beat rocky in the gg) were stunning. Ive seen film of charles against oma, louis, valentino, holman, walcot, bivins and renolds and charles is by far more explosive and sharp against walace and satterfield. Im not joking, without hindsight I would have bet on charles against marciano on that form! marciano beat a great charles. Your only as good as your last fight as the saying goes well in his last fight charles was **** hot!! [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E2BEE8Ce70[/ame]
One thing is for sure ... the recent match ups of Marciano v.s. Quarry and Tunney are far more fair. This is where he should be matched up. 200 pounds or so and less ...
That was exectly my thinking when I started the thread :yep. Really intriguing matchups between fighters w/ contrasting styles and solid pedigrees :deal.
That all depends on your physique..... No way the 218 lb. peak Mike Tyson could ever slim back down to 190, 195 or 200 pounds by 1986 without getting sick or something..... :verysad But then you take a rugged slob like Chris Arreola who weighs 250 to 260 lard-ass pounds and you know damn well he could make 225 if he worked at it....... :yep Again, it depends on the man's build / frame......:good SR.BILL
I haven't seen this hypothetical out here yet. Good choice. Tunney was one of the great fistic intellects of the 20s along with Benny Leonard, Jack Britton, and Tommy Loughren. He was a micro-strategist who did everything right and I have no doubt that he would employ precisely the right strategy that would be needed to defeat the beast that was Marciano. But there's a problem. Tactics and strategy simply isn't enough. Marciano really can be held up as the ultimate foil of brainy fighters. Technicians ain't effective when technique is rendered obsolete --the Rock punched right through them and proved impervious to their wiles. Victor Frankenstein was a genius right up until the moment his monster broke the straps and demolished the lab. The court calls Archie Moore to the stand. Moore was no slouch himself in the intellectual department and Rocky's sheer strength and relentlessness rendered all that brain-power obsolete, didn't it. Does anyone believe that Tunney could do what the harder punching, roughly intellectually equal Moore couldn't? I don't. I am one, perhaps a minority, who would favor 1919 Dempsey (as opposed to that dissipated later version) to defeat and perhaps even stop 1926 Tunney. I'd have to favor Marciano over 15.
I saw Marciano/Vingo fight MSG 1949...Great larger edition of Henry Armstrong, tireless, tireless...Gene Tunney retired in his very prime, and we vwill never know how great he would become..Not only was Gene an intelligent and fleet footed great boxer, but he was deceptively strong also..In the clinches with Dempsey,slow but still strong, he easily tied up the Manassa Mauler...I can envision Tunney boxing and stabbing long range Marciano,while avoiding Rocky's slower bombs, for 12 rounds or more if necessary. If trapped against the ropes,the heavier Tunney,was strong enough totie Marciano up.I see Tunney more effective than Ezzard Charles was against Marciano, because no one could move bachwards,as Gene could...Tunney by dec....
Charles doesn't look that great to me against Satterfield/Wallace. If you watch the whole fights you'll see that Charles was taking a lot more punishment than usual and stylistically was more of a slugger than he had been previously. I think Tunney vs Marciano is a very close call. Gene was more of an attacking boxer at the time of the Carpentier and Gibbons fights in 1924-1925 and crushed both fighters with great body punching. Against Dempsey he was able to change up his style into a fleet-footed boxer than Dempsey just couldn't catch. Dempsey was putting a lot of pressure on him, not as much as a prime Marciano but still a lot, and had much more left than he's said to have, he was not shot by any means. But Tunney the brilliant strategist executed a perfect gameplan to beat him. Dempsey's only problems were possibly mental, physically he was still good. He was a lot more ruthless in his prime and only woke up in the 7th round against Sharkey when Sharkey had hit him after the bell.
I think Tunney and Moore are very different though. Moore was more flat-footed, used mainly upperbody movement and was confident in his power. Tunney relied on his footwork and his ability to keep up a terrific pace. He simply overwhelmed Gibbons and never stopped working against Dempsey although in 10 round bouts. However if he could match Greb in some 15 round bouts then it's not impossible to imagine him keeping up with Marciano.
Bottom line: I believe Tunney should be a prohibitive favorite regardless of the circumstances based on reach, boxing ability and preparation alone. Rock still has the intagibles and savage power but I honestly don't think that's enough against the Tunney that fought Dempsey.
Mr Bill, I'll tell you how old I am....I'm so OLD that my social security is in ROMAN NUMERALS.......
Really awkward fight for Rock I think - Tunney didn't like guys crowding his chest - although on the plus side for the Rock Gene's short punches looked to carry little weight. But he used a left jab that was superior to all others until Joe Louis in my book and boxed confidently and cleverly - very disciplined and never wavered from his gameplan - he seemed to have a stratergy for a fight and stuck to it - was one of the few fighters who I just could never see unnecerssarily putting himself in a position where he was risking losing - an old head on young shoulders - would only ever throw a jab and a straight right hand against Dempsey - don't think I once saw him risk a hook or an uppercut - knew exactly how to smother and knew not to mix it with Jack on the inside, used his timing to his advantage - kept Dempsey either turning & off balance with the jab, out of range with movement, or over-reaching & lunging and on the rare occasions Jack did get close he would be quickly smothered and clipped around the ears in close - difference is though Marciano would be young, amazingly conditioned, much more poise than Jack showed and certainly a much better approach - would get to Tunney sooner and much more consistantly - do think it would go the distance but then sometimes I think well a young Dempsey wouldn't have let Tunney escape like he did in the long count match and sometimes it think about how clinical Marciano was say against Lastarza and only 5 men out of 46 actually went the distance with him and only one did when Rocky was really at his peak - so yeah I'd go with Rock but it would be a great fight - maybe a very late stoppage.