Sonny Liston, why is he ranked so highly?

I pretty much agree with the vast majority of this post.

Only one thing I would point out:

As a matter of fact, he wasn't in the top 10 at that time.

 

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:happy

Just as much as a Tyson story of "What if" in the sense. Except Tyson actually had a reign and did more in my view.

I had Liston outside the top 10. Everyone here convinced me to bump him up. He went as high as 8. Now he's back to 12. I have Holyfield above him too. Dempsey is holding on a stand at #10 due to his impact to boxing and legend. He's hard to just scrap off even if he's resume and title run is lacking.

Great post.

 

:happy

Williams was also a high risk fight for Liston who was putting his long time held number one contender status up against a rising fighter with the "avoided slugger" tag for little money.

 

I remember reading wiliams was an unstable guy when he came to the uk to fight richardson. there was a mix up with shorts and wiliams refused to fight unless he had his lucky shorts. It was a dsq win, richardson was rough and had headbutted wilaims who refused to fight. the big cat was home sick and also pulled out of a rematch with richardson at the last moment. wiliams wanted to go home. he was not asked back.
arthur mercante rated wiliams as a puncher and he saw a lot of punchers. power is not evrything and big cats record is not good against good fighters. wiliams only made the rings annual ratings in 61, 62, 63 and 64'. so he fought liston in 1959 and 1960 before he was rated.

 

"In 1959, Liston began to dominate the heavyweight division. He won all four fights by knockout which included beating the number one ranked challenger, Cleveland Williams, in three rounds. Liston won four of five fights by knockout the following year as well."-Associated Press


He didn't finish in the Ring Annual Rankings those years but he was an official contender to Patterson's title when Liston demolished him. He jumped up in the Ring Rankings after the fact because he got more opportunties to prove himself after the well recieved televised brawls with Liston, he became "in demand." Ring magazine voted him as one of the greatest fighters to never win the title, as well as an all time great puncher. Liston proclaimed him the hardest puncher he ever faced and one of his biggest tests, and most articles at the time named him a live underdog to Ali's title despite losing a kidney. This was a tough dangerous fighter that shouldn't be dismissed so casually.

 

He completely Demolished Floyd Patterson Twice, he beat Eddie Machen and Zora Folley who Patterson Avoided and he knocked out an underrated Hard hitter like Cleveland Williams. Not to mention he was constantly avoided and because the Commision didn't really want him to be champion because of the bad press he would give boxing given his reputation - which is why it took him that soon to get a world title shot when he was already in his early to mid 30's, considerably old in Boxing.

He was only legitamatley destroyed by Muhammad Ali twice who is the greatest Heavyweight of all time, and I'm sure many boxing analysts have Liston as the unofficial heavyweight champ of sorts between the late 50's to early 60's because he beat guys who Cus and Patterson avoided...

 

I don't know when that clip was written or how you found it, but it's completely incorrect. These were the Ring rankings going into April '59, the month that Liston fought Williams:

1. Ingemar Johansson
2. Zora Folley
3. Henry Cooper
4. Sonny Liston
5. Eddie Machen
6. Nino Valdes
7. Willie Pastrano
8. Brian London
9. Chuck Powell
10. Joe Erskine

You can find confirmation of this here, in reports printed that very month:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...,3117262&dq=nino+valdes+powell+rankings&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...,1783097&dq=nino+valdes+powell+rankings&hl=en


Williams was never the #1 contender, and his peak as a contender didn't come until around '62 - '64, prior to being shot.

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4aNqgZmbbk[/ame]

5:20

 

IBC rankings I would assume. Several sources state he was being lined up for a shot against Patterson in 59, and was being possibly ducked.


http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/obituary-cleveland-williams-1119362.html
Williams, whose ancestry was part black-American, part native American- Indian, was known as the "Big Cat" because of his languid, deceptive ring style. He could also hit exceptionally hard - and in his peak years at the end of the 1950s was considered a possible future world heavyweight champion. That's when the bad luck began to set in.
He was in line to fight the world titleholder Floyd Patterson, whose jaw was far from resilient against big hitters. However, Patterson was paired with the Swede Ingemar Johansson, and lost the title dramatically - knocked down seven times in three rounds - in June 1959. Instead of fighting for the title, Williams took on Sonny Liston twice and was knocked out twice.

 

Did the IBC actually have their own rankings? I thought they only promoted fights.

The sourcing you've been posting seem to have been written sometime after the events in question, and have misinformed knowledge of them. The reports from the time period itself to not regard Williams as any more than a fringe contender, if that. I posted this report earlier from Time Magazine, published right after Liston beat Valdes (after he had already beaten Williams once):

"The massive-shouldered Negro looked like just another pug until he stung his man with a left to the belly in the third round. Then Sonny Liston came alive. A left hook to the head made big Nino Valdes drop his gloves; a right cross dumped him on the floor, his eyes glazed. It was Liston's 18th victory in a row, and his 25th in 26 pro fights.
Liston is one of 25 children born to an Arkansas farmer and his two wives. At twelve, Liston had an argument with his father, ran away to live with his mother in St. Louis. He later landed in jail after helping to hold up a restaurant. There Liston learned to read, met a chaplain who interested him in boxing. Liston studied Joe Louis' My Life Story by the hour, soon was prison champion, emerged to win the intercity Golden Gloves heavyweight championship in 1953.
At 27, Liston has power to spare (6 ft. 1 in., 211 lbs.), plus a pair of fast hands that can nail a chin with a kayo punch (16 knockouts). Liston also has links to boxing's underworld; e.g.. Blinky Palermo of Philadelphia's gangland was once arrested carrying some of Liston's receipted bills. Whatever his connections, many boxing buffs see Liston as the U.S.'s most promising challenger for Sweden's Johansson, even though Liston has so far fought only second-raters. With future title fights snarled by legal difficulties, Liston has no assurance when—if ever—he will meet Johansson, or, for that matter, Floyd Patterson. But Liston is properly confident. "I don't think Johansson can punch," says he. "I know Patterson would never get up the second time if I caught him."

 

wiliams was a puncher and he was rated. this was much later on. he was impresive when liston fought him but not rated.

 

Ha,

Looks like I jumped the gun with that story. Sorry guys. I'll have to withdraw that until I can get to the bottom of it. I've seen lots of sources that describe Williams as a potential challenger to Patterson prior to Ingo's sudden emergence but nothing to confirm the number one ranking claim of those articles.

Most credible sources seem to regard him as an avoided fighter but he doesn't appear to start climbing the Ring rankings until after his impressive televised showings against Liston.

"Two hard-hitting heavyweights who had trouble finding opponents met each other in the ring here Wednesday night and Sonny Liston of Philadelphia came off the winner by a TKO in 2:04 of the 3rd round. Liston floored his opponent, Cleveland Williams of Houston, Texas, twice before referee Jimmy Peerless stopped it. "-Associated Press (boxing rec.)

 

it is measured to the finger tips.
it should be measured from a closed fist to a closed fist - much better.
also : no way he had 84" , yes , i saw boxrec , yes , i saw liston's pictures , yes , i saw part of his first fight with ali and maybe the second as well , he obviously did not enjoy a reach advantage over ali .
reach statistics are exaggerated to the max.
we have already been through that.
height statistics are also very not trustworthy . reach stats are yet even worse.
liston had a big upper body but so is said of fitzsimmons whom had 71" reach for 71.5" of height.
so , maybe liston was rangy (for his height) , but definitely not that much.

and back to the topic : liston is greatly overrated , he did not have much success against quality opposition.
i think he would have been beaten many times had he fought (against the top opposition of the time) at any era since about 1965 till about 2005 , maybe except the holmes/spinks era.