Prime julio cesar chavez vs manny pacquiao?

You're reading it incorrectly Rock.......

Let me put it this way......Whitaker was never the type thet fighters were going to go after searching for.
Who the hell wants to search, seek, and fight a Southpaw defensive cutsie?????

Certainly there was'nt any money value in Chavez demanding to fight Whitaker.
Chavez was the best P4P at the time, so its certainly was'nt up to him to seek to fight Pernell Whitaker.

For the reason's I stated, any fighter in Chavez' position who had a choice, would certainly skip Whitaker altogether.

Whitaker was the one that needed to do the seeking and demand the fight.
That never happened.....had Whitaker really wanted to fight Chavez, he would have stuck around 140 lbs and forced the fight.

The only reason the fight finallly happened at 147 lbs was because Chavez wanted to try his hand at a 4th world title in different weight classes.

Chavez went up to seek Whitaker, not the other way around.

.....and like I said before, that was a smart move by the Duva's to not stick around and wait for a Chavez fight to materialize at 140 lbs when they had an inkling that Chavez might go to 147 lbs instead to fight Whitaker there.........A weight they knew benefited Whitaker more than it did Chavez.

 

Im not putting it correctly or appropriately?

Im basing my post on various media sources and interviews around time.

You are basing yours on unfounded assumptions.

Pea moves up to 140 and doesnt fight Chavez....Must be Pea's fault.
Pea moves up to 147 after a short stay at 140...must be his fault.

Never mind the whole point of the second half 1992 for King and Chavez was to fight Camacho. Thats why they both fought tune ups on the same card, I believe a Julian Jackson one in around July from memory.

Never mind in Chavez's post fight interview he makes no mention of Whitaker whatsoever. Only saying he has a fight planned against a former Pea victim in Haugan for December (was postponed) and that he would fight Camacho again if Hec wanted to.

Never mind the multiple articles that have King completely and utterly shutting the fight down because he reckons Pea wont sell.

Never mind the interviews where Pea calls Chavez out on several occasions and where Duva makes multi million $ offers to Chavez for the fight..and the seemingly very sparse collection of articles where Chavez calls him out back.

It was all Pea's fault though...I truly see it now. :roll:

What the hell did you expect Pea to do? What fight was there realistically for him if the Chavez fight wasnt getting made till mid way through the next year at the earliest.
So he moved up and fought a very good fighter who was pushing for p4p recognition and who did Chavez fight? Pea leftovers and the mid-west assassin Jakubowski.

Again if YOU CAN SHOW ME EVIDENCE of Pea implicitly dodging this fight then I will accept that. But Im guessing Ill be waiting a while.

 

So now it goes from Pea dodging the fight...to him not being the a viable option so thats why Chavez didnt want to fight him?

So you are backtracking now to actually admit that Chavez purposely dodged this fight because you feel he had good reason to.

Why with all the Pea wanted no part of him nonsense beforehand? I know you didnt say it but you agreed with it.
Or is it you now see that its all bull****...Pea wanted the fight, King didnt and thats why it didnt happen until 93.

 

I'm basing my views on what I read and saw as well.

I have already stated that it was'nt Chavez' job to call for a Whitaker fight. Chavez was the percieved P4P, why the hell would he want to make a shoutout to fight a defensive cutsie with no drawing power????

The job was Whitaker's to force the Chavez fight, and he did'nt even attempt to do that.

Yeah, I can see them lining up right now at 154 lbs to 160 lbs to fight Corey Spinks......who the hell would want to do that?

Now if Spinks held the titles and was recognized as the best, they'd be lining up left and right to fight him.

Thats the dilliema that Whitaker faced when he moved to 140 lbs......he already had beaten Pineda, all there was left to do is keep winning there till the fight materialized.

I'll change my tune on the matter if you can show me one fight where Whitaker calls out Chavez while Whitaker is at 140 lbs.......
I'm not going to be bothered searching for it myself, but if you want to do it......go ahead and do so....go look at the Pineda fight and show me Whitaker calling Chavez out after that win.
You would think he would have done that after beating Pineda and having a little leverage now holding a part of the title.

All I know is what I saw and read for myself.....Whitaker abandoing 140 lbs immediately after winning the title there and Lou Duva himself explaining the plan all along was to get the Chavez fight at 147 lbs.


Again, it was'nt Chavez' job to seek Whitaker.
The contenders are the ones that get in line to fight the P4P best, not the other way around.



:huhCan you imagine anyone in their right mind calling out SweetPea when he was'nt considered the best p4p at the time.:huh

He was thought of highly by most, sure, but it was Chavez almost to a man that everyone had as the best p4p.........it would make not sense at all for him to be calling out and shouting to fight the style fighter like Whitaker.

Had it been the other way around, and it was Whitaker that most regarded as the best, I'm sure Chavez would have demanded that Whitaker fight him.

 

only in your sand NI...... DREAMSatsch

 

only in FLIPE EYES will JCC LOSE........TO PACKY

 

Whitaker was the No2 P4P at the time...not just some run of the mill titlist trying to cash in.

That is really a very weak argument divac..because it can be easily refuted. Pea was the second best fighter in the world p4p, it is just as much Chavez's job to fight the best available to keep his p4p crown.

One minute ago you are saying Pea wanted nothing of Chavez...now you are giving Chavez a pass because Whitaker has no drawing power.

I found you out on that one..so you will leave it at that.

...Ill even let you edit that out if you want.

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/08/05/sports/boxing-notebook-duva-may-finance-holyfield-bout.html

There is one to start you off.

I could start directly linking you to a couple but this is the best way...you could probably find at least a dozen articles in there where Whitaker calls out Chavez or Duva calls for a Chavez bout.

http://news.google.com.au/archivesearch?as_user_ldate=1992&as_user_hdate=1992&q=julio+cesar+chavez+whitaker&scoring=a&hl=en&ned=au&um=1&q=julio+cesar+chavez+whitaker&lnav=od&btnG=Go

A heap of articles from 92 when both were at 140.

I can read some of the full ones that you pay for but I cant link you to them because they need you to register..but you can clearly see the quotes and get the jist of the ariticle.

And by the way Im still waiting for those articles that state Pea was the one dodging Chavez.

Well read some of the articles I found quite easily and you can learn something new.

Again weak as **** argument. Whitaker was not just some contender, he was p4p no2, an Olympic gold medalist and former undisputed lightweight champion.

Whitaker seeked Chavez on several occasions, Chavez did not do the same as the evidence clearly points to. He may have been lead into saying Whitaker was on his radar, but when it came down to it fights were already signed that did not have Whitakers name on the contract.

P4P NO 2


What more do you want...On that criteria who the hell is Chavez supposed to fight if the second best fighter in the world is not good enough...Oh thats right Greg Haugan.

Why not and what made it soooo different 1 year later?

Well it wasnt and he didnt..What happened is that Whitaker called out Chavez and Chavez didnt reply.

Im not for one second saying Chavez dodged him or was scared to fight him but it was clear King wanted no part of it at the time.
And you coming on here and rubbishing Whitaker for things you obviously didnt even care to look into about just screams of fanboyism.

 

Why Duck Whitaker but get slaughtered by Terry Norris ?. I remember Whitaker call him out but Main Events was not serious about making the fight happen.

Camacho would call out Chavez yet never sit down for a negotiation...


"Goossen wants the fight, and so does Norris. So does Norris' manager, Joe Sayatovich. And Chavez has publicly said he wants it."
http://articles.latimes.com/1993-03-06/sports/sp-75_1_las-vegas

 

What was the tougher fight...Whitaker or Norris?

 

You are the guys throwing all around the accusations of ducking.

Ive heard nothing but you guys rubbish Pea and totally discredit him by saying he was the one that wanted no part of Chavez.

When the evidence points to the contrary. I have little doubt Chavez would have fought Whitaker but King didnt want him to, so he steered him in other directions.

But the fact remains Whitaker wanted the fights, called for it, made offers...but because he left the division out of frustration he is the cowardly ducker.

Again you guys are all making assumptions about things that happened when King is on record saying he doesnt want the fight and Pea & Duva are on record saying they did.

Not sure what you are getting at ricard...you pretty much just repeated exactly what I said about the whole Norris situation. In fact thats probably the article that Ive read before.

 

That is Divac's specialty lol, his logic is based on assumptions then he thinks his conclusions are rock-solid.

 

You have your dates mixed up my man. That fight was getting talked about in early 93. Whitaker was primed and ready to fight Chavez in mid-late 92. It wasnt like Chavez had Norris in his sights at that point, Camacho and Haugen were the fighters he was talking about.

You are acting as though Im trying to paint Chavez as the problem here but Im not at all. Your the one painting Whitaker as some ***** who didnt want the fight. Im simply refuted that with facts and evidence.

Its really irrelevant about the Norris fight, that fight didnt happen...The Haugan bout did.

 

He is cool.

But this goes beyond his hard on for Chavez..which I totally understand as I have a semi for Julio myself.

Its about his consistent and blind hate for Pea...not really sure why. Maybe he is just sore Pernell embarrassed his boy, I dont know.

He has dug himself a hole with some of his **** in this thread though. I know he is probably off looking at the articles I gave him to look at to find little tidbits that might help his argument, whilst ignoring the overwhelming evidence that doesnt.
I look forward to his reply when I return from work.

 

The problem in making either fight both Norris and Whitaker was that both Norris and Whitaker wanted parity or close to it......

......by far it was Chavez who filled arena's......so he should have gotten the Lion's share.....

....ultimately both fights fell through because of it.

Certainly Whitaker with his safety first fighting style had no right to ask for anything close to parity.
.....its right there in the article that Rock posted. Duva wanted close to parity.

.....and Rock, I never said Whitaker avoided anyone.
Both Chavez and Whitaker are guided by promoters, and its the Duva's who took Pernell up to 147 lbs, never forcing the Chavez fight at 140 lbs.
You've mentioned that Whitaker in frustration took off to 147 lbs???:huh
Frustration? The man had just stepped onto the scene at 140 lbs......he does'nt get the Chavez fight at his first asking and he takes off like a bolt of lightning.


Listen.....Felix Trinidad forced DLH to fight him by accepting the lesser of a 75-25 split.
Thats the type of split that Whitaker needed to accept if he wanted a part of Chavez at 140 lbs.....

The same thing happened with the Marquez-Pacquiao rematch........that rematch would have never taken place had not Marquez accepted the lesser of a 75-25 split.

Whitaker wanting parity with Chavez at that particular time is a joke.

At the end of the day for me, I wont blame Whitaker, but I certainly do blame the Duva's for not making the fight happen at 140 lbs.......

......the Duva's got their wish later on, but at the time they bypassed 140 lbs, there was'nt any guarantee that Chavez would eventually follow him to 147 lbs........


Eventually the choice for Chavez was Norris or Whitaker at 147 lbs, and seeing that Norris wanted parity as well, that choice was rather easy for Don King and JC Chavez.

 

And I wish he wouldn't have. What did he weigh in at, 142? He wasn't the same man by that time.