Sharkey vs. Carnera II, Was it fixed?

Agreed.

I think he showed some nice flashes in the Louis fight, in terms of movement and jab for a big lump anyway.

I think Carnera gets a bit udnerrated nowadays. He wasn't great no, but he wasn't a fraud as some make him out to be either.

In my opinion.

 

Knute Hansen? Oh PLease. !!
In his previous fight both he and his opponent Jose Santa [another Carnera playmate ], had their purses stopped for not trying.
Hansen sported 5 consecutive losses before fighting Carnera 3 by stoppage.
His only win before that was a DQ to Roy Ace Clark[another Carnera playmate],then ,previous to that , he had lost both his fights ,by ko.

They fixed fights against nobodies because they could ,thats why the majority of them were in tank towns.Out of sight of more discerning eyes.

The majority of the better fighters were harder to get in the bag.

 

"The majority of the better fighters were harder to get in the bag."

And if they weren't in the bag, it undercuts the argument that Carnera couldn't fight. According to See, the Franz Diener ko was on the level, but the utter nobody Fedor Nicolaieff was a fix. Let's assume this is gospel. Why would one not conclude that if Carnera could ko Diener, he could also ko Nicolaieff in an up and up fight?

 

"Mills jaw was not broken"

I stand corrected. I have read that, but it only goes to show what I am saying about Carnera. You can't believe everything you read. The feather-fisted Maxim certainly did knock Mills out, though.

"Carnera never made a film in Hollywood"

Most of the info you give here is just not correct, which can be checked at the Internet Movie Data Base. Besides MIGHTY JOE YOUNG for RKO in 1949, Carnera also appeared as himself in THE PRIZEFIGHTER AND THE LADY for MGM in 1933. In 1954 he appeared in PRINCE VALIANT as the secondary but important villain Sligon. This was a 20th Century Fox production starring Robert Wagner, Janet Leigh, Debra Paget, James Mason, Brian Aherne, etc. It was a major production. I have the DVD of that movie and Primo's role is fairly extensive. He also appeared in 1954 in a featured role in CASANOVA'S BIG NIGHT for Paramount which starred Bob Hope, Joan Fontaine, Basil Rathbone, and Lon Chaney, Jr. I don't know exactly where VALIANT and CASANOVA were filmed--the studios were filming a great deal on location by this time--but I would consider both "Hollywood" films. The KID WITH TWO FARTHINGS, directed by Carol Reed, followed in 1955. So Carnera had appeared in three major movies in 1954 and 1955. He also was begining to get roles on TV. He played the monster in a TV version of FRANKENSTEIN.
THE HARDER THEY FALL was released by Columbia in 1956, not 1957. Carnera sued for defamation, and was never to work much, if at all, as an actor in the US again.

"He was hardly Robert DeNiro"

Nor Gable or Bogart. He was not even Buddy Baer. But like Baer and the later wrestler Len Montana he was beginning to get parts because of his size and ominous looks. He would never have been a major player in Hollywood, of course, but he might have made money in "brute" roles in grade B flicks, and on TV shows such as "The Untouchables" or "The Roaring Twenties". Filing a suit against Harry Cohn effectively blacklisted him.

 

I DID NOT SAY CARNERA COULD NOT FIGHT.
I dont know how I can make it any plainer .
I said some of his bouts were fixed ,and ,gave a list of those that are generally beleived to have been so.
I never mentioned Diener, nor Nicolaieff.
I see you have not mentioned HANSEN.

 

You are right on The Prize Fighter and The Lady,which also featured Max Baer,I forgot this one.
Baer played a character called Steve Morgan ,who fights the Champion,[ more likely his manager] objected and they made it a draw.
Baer wore his robe from the film into the ring ,when he fought Carnera for real instead of reel.
What proof have you that Carnera was blacklisted by anyone?
Film studios of the time were autonomous and those under contract with one say MGM,had little contact with another, say RKO,For example Henry Fonda, a major Star had never met Katherine Hepburn till they acted together in On Golden Pond in1981 ,Fonda had been in films since 1935 and Hepburn since 1932.They had not met ,because they allways worked at different studios.
To say Carnera was blacklisted is pure supposition,I say Carnera was never going to have a major career in films.
Casanova's Big NIght ? Carnera had a very minor role and is not even listed in some cast credits.
The brute roles of this period were generally filled by Lon Chaney Jnr,who was in the aforementioned film,or Mike Mazurki.Both of whom had the advantage of fluent English.
Oh ,and I was one year out on the release of The Harder They Fall,does it make any diffference?

 

"To say Carnera was blacklisted is pure supposition"

I agree with this. All we know is that he had acted in three major films in the two years prior to filing his suit, and never landed another role in an American production. There is no doubt, though, that actors who gave the studio bigshots a headache found themselves on the outs. Luise Rainer won two Academy Awards and then was blacklisted by her own account because of a falling out with Louis B Mayer. Carnera, as you pointed out, was marginal anyway.


"Carnera was never going to have a major career in films"

I said that.


Fonda and Hepburn

I find this very interesting, especially since both were friends of Jimmy Stewart. I remember reading a comment by James Cagney that he never met Clark Gable. I don't see the relevance to Carnera, though. The studio bigwigs knew each other and worked together to discipline performers. It was a shared interest. Luise Rainer, as a two-time Oscar winner, should have been employable at other studios, but others backed up Mayer. Francis X Bushman was in the giant hit BEN-HUR in 1926, but then offended Mayer, and was effectively blacklisted at the major studios. After Mayer was gone in the fifties, Bushman suddenly started landing roles again. Stepping on Cohn's toes was not a good move for Carnera.


There were quite a few brute roles and with the Euro market becoming more lucrative, casting someone like Carnera might have made financial sense.


The release date on THE HARDER THEY FALL--1956 or 1957 does not matter much, but stating that Carnera did not make any movies in Hollywood prior to that movie does because he did.


Carnera's role in CASANOVA'S BIG NIGHT--this one I do not own and haven't seen in decades. Carnera plays Corfa and is listed on the cast lists on the IMDB and on Movies Unlimited. I do know from recent watching that he played the important role of the secondary villain in PRINCE VALIANT.

 

I didn't use your list of fixed fights. I took these names from a list posted on another board. That list said that according to See the Diener fight was on the up and up. That list claimed Nicolaieff as a fix.

I haven't discussed Hansen because he is not very important other than being a former contender and listed as an honest fight. What is the point? He was past it, on the downhill slope, and Carnera knocked him out as might be expected.

 

The source for Fonda /Hepburn is Wolf Mankiewitz via Barry Norman ,a well known authority on films in the UK.
O .F. I like debating with you because, apart from the fact that you allways present a reasoned , considered argument , you honestly admit any shortcomings in it.
The Prize Fighter And The Lady ,watched it recently, Baer looks enormous.
there is a photo extant ,of a great line up of ex champs introduced in the ring ,prior to the reel fight ,probably only topped by the line up for the Jeffries /Johnson fight

I came back to this thread but, honestly, can we add any more?
ps If you want to talk films pm me.

 

1. I don't doubt the Fonda/Hepburn story. I have heard similar about other stars. They didn't necessarily socialize.

2. I enjoy debating you also, and hope to pop in her now and then to debate topics which interest me.

3. Warner Archives is putting out the entire MGM and Warners, RKO, and United Artists archives on DVD's and I will try to remember to post info on THE PRIZEFIGHTER AND THE LADY when and if it comes out on DVD. It should before too long. This is only inside the USA, though, I think.

4. Can we add any more?----No, this topic is more or less exhausted.

5. On movies--I usually join debates in the lounge which deal with movies. Hope to see your posts. Have a good day.