Prime julio cesar chavez vs manny pacquiao?

Dont have time for a proper response..so ill reply to everything when I can.

BUT

Ricardo said that Pea wanted no part of Chavez at either lightweight or jnr lightweight. You highlighted this and certainly gave the impression you agreed with that statement.

I find it quite worrying that you dwell on debatable things that Duva may or may not have done (what is apparent is that he made several offers for the fight to happen) but give a piece of **** like Don King a pass for his actions which quite clearly bombed the fight more so then anyone elses.

 

HE was when he fought paky to many WARS ALREADY packy coughjt him just in TIME

 

Pac gets ruined in this fight, Taylor style.

 

That is the key point Whitaker killed the fight by asking for too much money.
Thanks for reminding me Divac. Main Events killed it... It would be more accurate to say that Pernell priced himself out of the fight.

Pernell did not duck him I was wrong !

 

You know, its been so long.......that we on both sides of the debate here, on Chavez' or Whitaker's, its easy to forget the specifics of why the fight did'nt materialize earlier.

Rock points to me that I've called Whitaker a ducker, I've never said that, it certainly was not my wording.....

In fact Rock, I'll go on record right now to say that I cant remember Whitaker himself being afraid to fight anyone.......
Whitaker was that confident in his defensive abilites that I believe he did'nt fear anyone for the fact that he could always ride the defensive wave if ever he was being hurt or thought he could get hurt with shots.

If you were to ask Pernell Whitaker, I'm sure he'd feel that at his best, he could rise all the way up to middleweight and outbox a prime Marvin Hagler.
I certainly dont think he could have, but I have no doubt that Pernell would think he could.

Now, could Pernell Whitaker have overruled the Duva's and come out publc to say he'd take a fraction of what Chavez would make for the fight?
I think he most certainly could have......certainly thats how Juan Manuel Marquez forced Pacquiao into signing for the rematch......


There is'nt going to be a winner in this particular debate because each of us read into the happenings in a different way.
The popular thing to do is to blame Don King for everything. The Duva's and Main Events were'nt any better than King, and the way they handled and abused Meldrick Taylor is proof.
I'm not sure if its this thread or a different thread floating around where I made a statement that Meldrick Taylor actually wanted the Chavez rematch right away, but it was the Duva's decision to guide him away from it.
Like they guided Taylor to 147 lbs, they then did the same with Whitaker.

I think it was in the buildup to Chavez-Whitaker that I heard Lou Duva himself concede that after the Chavez fight, they did'nt want to put Taylor in right away with Chavez again, and they did'nt feel Pernell was ready to take on Chavez either.
Then Duva went on to say that his fighter was at an advantage vs Chavez at Welter.

I cant remember the actual specifics, but Duva might have meant that after the Chavez-Taylor fight, they did'nt feel that Whitaker the lightweight was quite ready for such a challenge.

.....in any regards, they did bypass Chavez at 140 lbs when imo they should have conceded the much larger financial share to Chavez.




Let me make this clear Rock.....I dont believe either Whitaker or Meldrick Taylor ever ducked Chavez, they certainly did'nt fear anyone.....but the Duva's sure did fear JC Chavez.........well maybe fear is too harsh a statement.......lets just say the Duva's had great respect for Chavez' abilities, that they were willing to manuever both Taylor and Whitaker into better position and wait him out to where they felt their fighters had a better chance against him.

It is my feeling that the Duva's did not want, nor did they fight for a fight for Whitaker to be made at 140 lbs.
Calling for a fight and fighting for it to be made are completely two different things.

 

I disagree!

At the time, it was Chavez chance to win four titles in different weight classes.......and I believe that the Whitaker fight was a measuring stick for himself to see if his body was up to fighting as a Welterweight, so that he could then fight Terry Norris if he were sucessful against Whitaker.

Boy, most dont agree with me, but I thought Chavez pulled out the draw.
I was'nt particularly impressed at the time with Chavez' performance.......but in hindsight now, knowing just how many fighters Pernell made to look awkward......I cant be dissapointed with Chavez' performance considering that Whitaker was the bigger fighter.

I have nothing but respect for Chavez for both his title tries at 147 lbs......
How many fighters have made the climb up to fight just a paper champion who lucked into the title??????

Chavez my friend at 147 lbs fought an ATG and a HOF'er in DLH in both his attempts at the title.
......and guess what, both those fighters were prime at the time.
As a fan, I cant be anything but proud of his title tries there.

 

Pea and Duva themselves said they weren't eady for JCC at 140. They said so themselves that 147 was to their advantage. They waited 2 and a half years for Julio to get older and slower. What's the debate?
Would JCC at 140 after beating the **** out of Taylor beat Pea, Did JCC have a chance of beating Pea at 147 and 30 months after Taylor, **** NO. nobody knows.
I for one think JCC would have hurt Pea at 140. Duva knew it.

 

LMAO! Your biasness for Chavez and Marquez is hilarious. Watch the fight again, Pernell definitely won. Had Pea and JCC fought at 140 and 2.5 years earlier, the factual result is this: NOONE KNOWS. Most say Pernell defeats JCC at 140 too peak-to-peak, but again noone will ever know.

 

I agree. But it was a ****ing boring fight. Thanks to Pea.

 

I agree, this was too early for Pea & 93 was too late for JCC... anywhere from 89-91 is as close as you could get with both closest to their peaks & apparently it was Whitakers people that didnt want to go there.

It still amazes me why lots of posters on ESB (especially the classic section) rank Whitaker so much higher than Chavez... I think there is very very little between them (about as much between them as there is between Morales & Barrera IMO) & on most occassions I have Chavez 1 place higher... I dont think any version of Whitaker could have beat the Chavez that beat Rosario but the versions that beat Ramirez & Nelson would take it to the wire no doubt.

2 of the best ever & 2 of my fav`s to watch regularly depending on which style Im in the mood for :good

 

I think most people say Pac would win at 140 because when they think of Chavez at 140, they think of the Taylor fight where he was dominated for the vast majority of the fight, and got a win that many, many people thought he shouldn't have got. They then think of the Pac that destroyed Hatton so much easier than Floyd did (and this at Hatton's best weight), and reason that Pac was better than Taylor (I agree with this part), 2+2=5, so Pac beats Chavez at 140.

I don't agree with this, but I think it is the thought process at work on this thread (Taylor had great handspeed, so does Pac, etc). It's flawed logic, but it's understandable.

Just to clarify, I think Chavez beats Pac at 130,135&140, I think Pac beats Chavez at 140+ (ie at any weight over 140, either 147 or the 142 catchweight where the '93 Chavez fought Pea). I think everyone has a weight ceiling, and 140 was JCC's. He wasn't the same over that threshold IMO.

Though Pea would still have creamed him at any weight at any time.

 

Sure he would. I don't think Pea ever whooped on anybody.

 

:good

I agree with every word..... except the very last sentence of course

 

:good In my unbias opinion I also thought he pulled out a draw.

 

Chavez gets a hard fought decision at 130 or 135.
Pac gets the decision at 140 or 147.

This is assuming that cuts aren't a factor for either fighter.