Jack Britton Discussion

This is where it's really a damned shame we haven't got a combination of footage and radio recordings to go on.

While everybody else is vexed and frustrated by the lack of Greb on film, I'm even more perplexed by the absence of archival audio recordings, since Harry's peak coincided with the establishment of commercial radio in his hometown. Not only should we be able to see him competing, quite possibly we should actually be familiar with the very sound of his voice in radio interviews!

Imagine: Greb-Tunney I was both filmed and broadcast over the airwaves by Pittsburgh radio pioneer KDKA. A synchronization of the footage and recorded blow by blow commentary would be boxing's ultimate Holy Grail in my mind, easily surpassing even Greb-Walker. (I have a recording of KDKA's November 2, 1920 announcement of the Presidential election returns on vinyl, and the quality is excellent.) Is it too much to think that the broadcast of at least some of his matches in Pittsburgh were recorded on KDKA?

We seem to have little choice aside from deferring to the consensus of ringside reports. From what I gather, Greb could well be given their second match, while there seems little debate that Gene took the third.

I'll defer to newspaper consensus that their fourth battle in Cleveland was a standstill. While no footage of this newspaper draw has surfaced, Tunney-Carpentier took place less than two months earlier. We can see from that film that it was no embryonic, developmental Gene who warred with Harry in Cleveland. Tunney hit Carp so frequently upside the head that the cartilage in both the Orchid Man's ears had broken down. (If Tunney-Carpentier was big enough to be filmed, then how the hell was Greb-Tunney IV in Cleveland not? The mind boggles.)

That would make Harry 2-2-1 against Tunney, though a case for 3-2 could be made if one accepts the United News Wire report that Greb took nine of ten from a post Carpentier Gene. (Looking at Tunney take Georges apart makes the idea of Harry subsequently doing this to Gene more and more frightening.)

LaMotta wrote that while his official record against a prime SSR was 1-5, in his own mind they came out even in these battles. Where Greb and Tunney are concerned, this seems far more objectively factual (especially since Gene was never able to stop Harry).

 

And reportedly, when Flowers was being wheeled into his fatal operation, he stopped and asked, "Say, isn't this where Harry Greb died?" The doctor confirmed this, but reassured him, "You're tougher than he was Tiger. You proved that!" It was the very same doctor under whose hands Greb passed away. Death was tougher than both of them.

 

Wow.

Never knew that. Thanks to you and Burt:good

 

Burt, rest assured you're not alone. This was the first, and remains the only internet forum I've ever joined and posted to, and my skills are barely any better (if indeed at all). My initial concern regarding style was to make sure I broke them down into readable paragraphs before submission. (I use the "Preview Posts" feature liberally before I click "Submit Reply" to see how readable they are.)

Like Russ, I find myself looking forward to your contributions a great deal. As far as I'm concerned, you're the runaway winner as best new poster in ESB Classic at this early stage of the new decade. I'd hate for anybody to pass up your offerings and insights because of something as trivial as a solid block of words.

 

Duodenum,Thanks for your kind words..I'll jab, before throwing a right cross...I have so so many years of pent up boxing lore to expunge that ,I have typed too hastily, with ONE finger I might add...Thanks again Duo....

 

I could sit here and read Duodenum and Burt's posts all day long!

Some great stories guys.

 

The middleweight division is called the"greatest division " of boxing, but it is also the most tragic also...Look at all the tragic ends,these champs had....
Original Jack Dempsey....died consumption
Stanley Ketchel....shot and killed 1910
Billy Papke....comitted suicide
Harry Greb....died after eye and nose operation,age 32
Tiger Flowers....died also after eye operation 1 year later age 32
Battling Siki....shot and killed in Hells Kitchen age 30's
Marcel Cerdan[who I saw]MSG] killed in plane crash....age 33
Carlos Monzon.... killed in car crash...age 53
Les Darcy....sure HOF Australian great....died infection age 22
Yes,a great, but tragic division 160-175 pounds.....

 

And one could perhaps add the name of Bob Fitzsimmons to the list, having lost the money he made, having to perform until just three years before his death, and dying of pneumonia at age 54.

Monzon and Hagler are sometimes criticized for never having moved up in weight. As you pointed out though, 160 has been described as the greatest division in boxing, and it was a rare undisputed title when Carlos and Marv held it. (From 1978 to 1987, it was largely the ONLY undisputed championship in the sport, a status quashed after SRL-Hagler.)

 

Duodenum, speakink old Bob Fitzimmons, when I was 8 or 9 years old,an oldtime fighter, my father knew,would sing a song about Bob Fitzimmons,the old boxer heard when HE was a boy....He sang these words to the tune of "TIT WILLOW", from THE MiKADO,by GILBERT and SULLIVAN...Here goes....."On the shores of dear Bergen,stands honest old FitZ,...With his Wallop...His Wallop...His Wallop........Forgot the rest of the lyrics,but never forgot that OLD boxer singing, a song from the 1910 era...Probably Fitzimmons was training for a bout in Bergen, New Jersey...I never forgot him singing that ditty about the great Ruby Robert so long ago.......