Prime julio cesar chavez vs manny pacquiao?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by MLBME, Jan 10, 2010.


  1. chino2dapiapimp

    chino2dapiapimp WBC Fecarbox champ Full Member

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    Pac's corner stops it at the start of the 12th or he loses a unanimous dec. to Chavez. Chavez had a killer lead right and could take what ever pac had to offer, he would would muscle pac to the ropes and keep him there. Pac does not have the lateral movement a Camacho had and Chavez kept macho on the ropes and just pummeled him. like Vinny Paz said " any one who fights to survive sees the 12th against Chavez, anyone who fights to beat Chavez would get beat bad...
     
  2. chino2dapiapimp

    chino2dapiapimp WBC Fecarbox champ Full Member

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    Chavez never had a problems with cuts or swelling until he reached the twilight of his career.
     
  3. The Wanderer

    The Wanderer Boxing Addict Full Member

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    He had one or two small cuts before then. Not many, and often in fights where he blew guys out, but it happened.

    Still, if we're talking all weight classes where both fighters were active, (as I did in my post) then that includes weights where Chavez did problems with cuts.

    Pacquiao has been cut a few times too at 130, (especially the bad bleeding in Morales I) so it goes both ways.
     
  4. Wilhelm

    Wilhelm Well-Known Member Full Member

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    To those saying that Chavez crushes Pac: What sort of performance would Pac have to put on for you to think it's a good fight and what would he have to do to convince you that he could beat Chavez? If you can't think of anything he could ever do no matter how many guys he beats then you should really just give up as a huge Chavez nuthugger and leave the thread.

    It's not like Pac hasn't fought some excellent body punchers like Barrera, Morales, Hatton and Cotto and beaten them. Sure maybe they're not as good as prime Chavez, but it's not like Pac has only fought cans. He always has such a speed advantage that if a guy wants to open up and really go after the body then Pac can counter hard and move, just like he did against Cotto. When I think of tough matchups for Pac I think of guys that are as quick and fight defensively like PBF rather than guys who are more “take three to land one” types. I think fighting Pac like that is suicide for anyone under about 160.
     
  5. thanosone

    thanosone Love Your Brother Man Full Member

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    LOL Chavez would murder Pac. Beating Hatton and a past it, weight drained Oscar doesn't mean he can beat prime Chavez. I think you need to watch some Chavez fights.
     
  6. IsaL

    IsaL VIP Member Full Member

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    Chavez wasn't only a puncher. He was a true master at what he did. Untill you learn to appreciate his style and it's effectiveness, you will not understand.
     
  7. Bill Butcher

    Bill Butcher Erik`El Terrible`Morales Full Member

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    He absolutely does need to watch some JCC fights... he just described Chavez as a `take 3 to land 1` type fighter... not directly but he meant Chavez :rofl

    Chavez defence was off the charts good for his style of fighting.
     
  8. thanosone

    thanosone Love Your Brother Man Full Member

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    Legendary Nights is not his friend.
     
  9. divac

    divac Loyal Member Full Member

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    :bbb:bbb:bbb:happy:happy:happy:bbb:bbb:bbb
     
  10. Wilhelm

    Wilhelm Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I've seen Chavez's fights. He was a hell of a fighter. He wasn't unbeatable though. For some reason people can conceive of Duran or Armstrong beating him but won't even entertain the possibility of anyone else doing it EVER. I asked you a question that you didn't answer: What would Pac have to do for you to believe that he could beat prime Chavez? Who would he have to beat?



    And Cotto isn't just a puncher either. Neither is Hatton. Neither is Barrera. Neither is Morales. I'm not saying that just because he beat them that he could beat prime Chavez, but to say that he would get crushed and have no chance even though he beat all of those guys and dominated all of them (except for Morales I) is plain nuthuggery. You should also answer the question: What would Pac have to do and to whom for you to believe that he would have a good fight (if not win) against prime JCC?
     
  11. IsaL

    IsaL VIP Member Full Member

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    None of those guys mentioned come even remotely close to how good chavez was. None. All those fighters you mentioned had weaknesses that could be exploited when Pac fought them.

    Chavez did not have those fighters weaknesses.

    Take Cotto for example, his defense is ****, he had been brutally broken down and KO, confidence not likely the same as before, and he had a questionable chin.

    Hatton, his defense is even worse than Cotto's, his chin is questionable, and he lacks skill plain and simple.

    Barrera had a nice lefthook to the body, but nowhere to JCC lefthook. His chin was not as good as JCC. MAB had been figured out, and had failed on a couple occasions before Pac fought him as well.

    Morales was already on the downside of his career. Before Pac beat him, Morales had lost to Zahir Raheem who probably doesn't even crack the top 300 as far as all time rankings go.

    Fact of the matter is, that Pac has looked good and great against fighters who weaknesses that could be exploited and had been exploited before Pac fought them.

    A prime Chavez was UNDEFEATED, STRONGER, TOUGHER, better CHIN, better POWER, better SKILLED, better DEFENSE, more CONFIDENCE, and MORE EXPERIENCED than all those fighters you mentioned.

    When I look at how Pacquiao has been HURT against fighters like Larios and Solis, I can't help but to think what a MASTER like Chavez would do to Pac.

    Again, I go back to what Pac's vulnerbilities are, and how past prime B level fighters such as Solis and Larios were able to hurt him, and I can't help to think what a SUPERIOR fighter like Chavez would have done to Pac. FFS, Pac lost to Morales in the twilight of his career. Imagine a PRIME CHAVEZ!

    Nothing. Just like there's nothing PBF can do to convince me he would beat Duran, nothing JMM could do to convince me he would beat Chavez, nothing Cotto could do that he would beat Hearns, and nothing Paul Williams could do that he wuld beat Hagler.

    All these fighters have peaked, and theres not much they can do to show us why they should be regarded higher than the ones mentioned.
     
  12. bernie4366

    bernie4366 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    JCC doesn't take three to land one, he's at least as elusive as Pac. Saying JCC beats Pac isn't meant as disrespect to Pac. If I say 68 Ali beats 86 Tyson, that's not meant as disrespect to Tyson either, and the fact that I said I think Pac might win at 140 is actually HUGE props to Pac, because JCC was a ****ing ATG killer at 140 too. Pac has looked absolutely ferocious at 140 and above, and JCC was at his absolute best below 140.
     
  13. Wilhelm

    Wilhelm Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Well, those fighters with all of their weaknesses are the absolute top of the food chain fighters at the weights that Pac has fought at in his career. Part from PBF, who is left for Pac to beat? Maybe he moves up even further and fights Paul Williams or something, but really, Pac has done just about as well as anyone can in this era of boxing.

    Also, JCC did have a weakness that nearly every pro fighter has which is when the guy you’re fighting is a lot quicker you eat a lot of leather. We saw that against Meldrick Taylor and Pernell Whitaker. This is the same advantage that Pac had over all of those A-level fighters he beat (and the advantage that Raheem had over Morales as far as that goes).

    Stronger? I don’t know about that. JCC didn’t move up in weight nearly as successfully as Pac has. Most of JCC’s biggest wins were at 140 and below while Pac has moved up and crushed much bigger guys like Cotto and De la Hoya. Also, Pac’s defense is getting better all the time, though it’s hard to compare the two because their styles are so different. “More Confidence”, I don’t buy. Pac is certainly confident enough to do his best and I don’t know how you or anyone else would know who is more confident anyway. Pointless thing to say.




    This is really the end right here. You seem pretty comfortable being one of those guys that holds up past fighters as being necessarily better than current fighters no matter what. It’s always easy to say that those guys were greater by just making the usually pretty baseless claim that the competition was infinitely better in the past, but that doesn’t leave much room to really appreciate the great boxers we have today. Besides, if you’re starting point is the axiom that older boxers like Chavez, Duran, Hearns and Hagler are better than modern guys then it’s pretty boring to read posts that (surprise surprise!) come to that conclusion.

    If, say, Pac beats PBF then Williams then Mosley then JMM again then moves up and beats Pavlik and then, I don’t know, beats Abraham or whoever wins the super six blah blah blah then I wouldn’t have any problem saying Pac had a better career then JCC and putting him above him on all time P4P lists. The “styles make fights” argument about fighting JCC at 130 or 135 could go on from there, but at least I can conceive of a scenario where by doing something that JCC never did, he would be greater. If you can’t even come up with anything no matter how out there then you’re just a boring, close minded nuthugger.
     
  14. thanosone

    thanosone Love Your Brother Man Full Member

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    I don't think he could beat anyone under 140-147 that would make me say he can beat JCC. JCC was better than any belt holder at 140 and 147.
     
  15. IsaL

    IsaL VIP Member Full Member

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    That's fine and dandy. Pac has had a good run. I've always said he was fortunate to come into the scene at the twilight of a great Era. He capitalized on being the younger, faster, stronger fighters, against aging fighters like Barrera, Morales, DLH, and even JMM.

    So in Pac's Era which is mid to late 2000's, he's been P4P on top.

    But you cannot deny the fact that most of Pac's best wins were against fighters who were not in their absoloute prime, but instead towards the end of their careers. Battle worn. Also he fought TWO guys who could not weigh in at their most comforatble weight.

    I understand there's not very much can do to enhance his legacy. But there is ONE fight he could take, but he chose not to over something as fair as a PED test.

    I also cannot ignore his vulnerbilities. How he has been hurt multiple times, and even by journeymen.

    Chavez is superior to any fighter Pac has ever fought. If guys like Larios can momentarily have Pac on ***** street, I can easily see how Chavez would do against Pac.

    Pac has been KO by body shots, shouls have been KO by Nedal with what looked like a jab, and has been hurt by about 4 other fighters.

    Not true. First off JCC wasn't in top form against Taylor, so if anything, he vulnerbility was not being disciplined ain a couple fights. But not necessarily fighters with speed. And still Chavez ****ed the **** out of Taylor, and ruined him, and KO in the 12th!

    Whitaker DID not beat him with speed, he beat him with DEFENSE, and at a weight where Chavez wasn't at his best, and a bit past his best.

    We're talking about a PRIME Chavez here, according to the thread.

    A Prime Chavez beat the living **** out of a highly skilled and P4P one of the fastest fighters EVER. Hector Camacho. JCC had his timing down, it's how he ****ed up Camacho and Mayweather.

    Pac brings nothing JCC never saw. Pac brings a crackable chin, a vulnerble body, not very good defense, and willingnes to trade which favor JCC.

    JCC was stronger, because it seems he took punches better, wether they were body or to the head. All you have to do is look at Chavez fights in his prime, and look at Pac's fights, even against Journeymen Pac seemed to get hurt.

    Confidence, JCC never seemed scared nor worried about anyone.
    Pac, opted out of the biggest, fight, pay day, and legacy defining fight because of a simple random blood test. :think

    Defense. Pac gets hit plenty. Hurt plenty.
    Chavez, he was superb in that department, and in the pocket.


    Bull****. I am not one of those guys that says that. I do however say that THIS ERA is weaker than that previous two or three.

    And if you'd actually read what Im posting, you'd see my claims are not BASELESS, but I try to demonstarte how a fighter would explout another fighters weakness based on other fights, and I defend my points with examples from other fights.

    This Era is weaker than Oscar's era, and Chavez' era. That is a fact.

    All those fighters you mentioned are better than modern ones. Hell, even 90's top fighters had accomplished more than todays top fighters. I mean you have guys like Williams with ZERO succesful defenses in his 10th year as pro on top, you know what fighters like Oscar and Tito had already accomplished in their 10th year. A BIG DIFFERNCE!

    If Pac did all that I'd have him in the top 3 ATG! :lol: And could be swayed as to why he should be #1.

    Unfortunately Pac doesn't have many options now. All roads lead to Mayweather. After that he is done win or lose. Unless of course Cotto win a strap at 154, then Pac can fight him at 147.5 for the Jr. MIDDLEWIGHT title.

    Also, you called me a nuthugger...What do you mean by that? :huh If anything, your the one that is unsuccessfully and blindly defending Pac. I'm posting examples, scenerios, talking about skills, and successfully defending my points.