One reason why I rate Jim Jeffries verry highly among the great heavyweights.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by janitor, Mar 1, 2010.


  1. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I have often been asked why I rate Jim Jeffries so highly given his level of opposition. To help people understand one aspect of my reasoning, I am going to outline Jeffries pre title opposition, the timeline, and what the fights meant at the time. As with my reconstruction of the style of John L Sullivan, I am in significant part condensing the work of Adam Pollack down to manageable bites:

    Hank Griffin (pro debut aged 19) KO14
    Jeffries appears to have had some sort of amateur career although details are lacking. His first recorded professional fight was a fifteen rounder against Hank Griffin. The exact date is unknown but Jeffries appears to have been 19 when the fight took place. Incredibly, it appears that this was in fact his professional debut. Although fight records of the period are incomplete, several contemporary sources specify that this was Jeffries debut. Griffin was not at this stage the force that he would eventually become but he was a major player at regional level who had beaten some name fighters. He was lighter than Jeffries but had a significant reach advantage. The fact that Jeffries was taking on a fighter of this calibre in a fifteen round fight in his professional outing is nothing short of remarkable. Griffin dominated Jeffries and was handily out pointing him until Jeffries caught up with him and stopped him in the 14th. After this fight Jeffries parents made him promise not to fight professionally again until he was 21 and he was consequently inactive for the next two years.

    Dan Long (the effective start of Jeffries professional career 02/07 1896) KO2
    The effective start of Jeffries professional career seems to be a fight with Dan Long at the age of 21. There are however a couple of newspaper accounts that suggest that he fought and defeated Frank Childs before this date. After this fight Jeffries came down with a severe bout of pneumonia and was not expected to live. He made a full recovery but was inactive for a significant period as a result. None the less, I will take this as Jeffries effective professional debut and gauge the length of his career from this point.

    Between this fight and his next professional outing Jeffries worked as a sparring partner for Jim Corbett. The fact that he was sparring with the current heavyweight champion in his first year as a professional is nothing short of remarkable.

    Theodore Van Buskirk (9 months in) KO2
    Van Buskirk was a solid gatekeeper who had beaten Joe Kennedy and would beat Joe Goddard in his next recorded fight. He was the kind of opponent a modern fighter would take on when they were stepping up to world level, which made him a very tough match at this stage of Jeffries career. He was also about the same size as Jeffries.

    Henry Baker (10 months in) TKO9
    Baker was a small heavyweight but he was also a seasoned pro who had been in with a lot of the best middleweights and heavyweights. He had a win over Joe Butler who won the coloured heavyweight and middleweight titles. Again this was a tough match at this stage of Jeffries career.

    Gus Ruhlin (1 year in) D20
    You all know who Gus Ruhlin was. Like Jeffries he was green at this point but he was 25 years old and had fought Peter Maher to a draw. Maher was a former title claimant, and at the absolute elite level at this point. I would have to regard Ruhlin as being significantly more developed than Jeffries when this fight took place. He was also a big man with a solid punch weighing 200 lbs. Jeffries appears to have had hand problems going into this fight and that is supported by a few sources. The fight ended in a draw but Jeffries scored a number of knockdowns and had Ruhlin in trouble on the ropes at the end. I think that Jeffries would probably have got the nod in an era where a knockout was not so important.

    Joe Choynski (14 months in) D20
    This was an absolutely merciless piece of matchmaking. Choynski was one of the most dangerous men on the planet at this point, and an absolutely devastating finisher. While Jeffries was about the same period of time into his professional career as Joe Louis was when he fought Max Baer he had a fraction of the ring experience. The same Joe Choynski mad quick work of a more experienced Jack Johnson. Choynski went into the fight as the betting favourite for obvious reasons.

    People often make light of this fight because of Choynski’s weight but the reality is that he would have been as dangerous opponent as you could have put in front of the champion at this point. At 170 lbs he was not much lighter than the version of Marty Marshal that beat Sonny Liston or the version of Doug Jones that took Muhamad Ali to the brink of disaster. He was also heavier than the Billy Conn that fought Joe Louis. Above all he was a far more dangerous puncher than any of them.

    The fight ended in a draw with Jeffries forcing the fight but Choynski landing the cleaner punches. Jeffries fought a lot more cautiously than usual. I personably suspect that this is the one fight on Jeffries record before he met Jack Johnson where the decision should arguably have been awarded against him.

    Joe Goddard (17 months in) TKO4
    Goddard had been an elite level heavyweight who held Peter Jackson to a draw when Peter Jackson was probably the best fighter on the planet. It is true that he was significantly past his best when Jeffries fought him but two points should be noted. He did go on to beat Peter Maher, and Jeffries absolutely demolished him This is a good win for a man of Jeffries experience at this time.

    Peter Jackson (18 months in) TKO3
    Peter Jackson was a living legend , who at his best was probably the No1 heavyweight on the planet for a few years. When Jeffries fought him he had been inactive and was badly dissipated by alcohol. Two points should be noted however. Jim Corbett had taken a lot longer to dispose of an equally dissipated John L Sullivan, and even people who knew about Jackson’s drink problems expected him to give the inexperienced Jeffries a long fight due to his defensive wizardry. Empty shells have done better against more experienced champions.

    Perhaps people who question Jeffries power are too quick to overlook the way he disposed of Goddard and Jackson.

    Mexican Pete Everett (19 months in) TKO3
    Everett was a noted contender who had never been stopped. He had an advantage over Jeffries in terms of height and reach and was thought to be good on both offence and defence. Jeffries was expected to beat him but it was expected that Everett would make the bout competitive.

    Tom Sharkey (19 months in) W20
    Tom Sharkey had been discussed as a potential opponent for Jeffries since the Dan Long fight, due the potentially explosive clash of styles. At this stage Sharkey was one of the most dangerous fighters on the planet. He had 30+ professional fights and had bested Choynski and Goddard. He had also fought a four round draw with Jim Corbett in which he had decisively bested the former champion. Jeffries was installed as a slight favourite with odds of 10 to 9 but many observers tipped Sharkey to win.

    Jeffries controlled the fight forcing the normally aggressive Sharkey to fight defensively and was awarded the decision.

    Bob Armstrong (22 months in) W10
    The plan here was that he would fight Bob Armstrong over ten rounds, and then fight Steve O’Donnel over ten rounds with half an hours rest between the bouts. Obviously a highly ambitious undertaking. Jeffries broke his thumb in the first round of the fight with Armstrong. He asked the fight doctor to inject cocaine into his thumb so that he could go ahead with the fight with O’Donnel but the fight doctor refused to let him continue.

    Bob Armstrong is a guy who was described a second ratter by many scribes of the period. Some disagreed however. The San Francisco examiner identified him as a possible successor to Bob Fitzsimmons title. Armstrong was certainly a dangerous challenger with a height and reach advantage over Jeffries and he was a renowned puncher. It is worth noting that Armstrong, like Sharkey was an offensive fighter who Jeffries forced to fight defensively.

    A shot at the championship
    Jeffries went into his title fight with Bob Fitzsimmons half way through his third year as a professional fighter with only a dozen or so professional fights under his belt. At this stage Fitzsimmons had destroyed every heavyweight contender that he had faced and was thought by some to be almost unbeatable. He was naturally installed as the favourite to win despite Jeffries weight advantage. Jeffries found himself in possession of the title as an inexperienced fighter who was still on a learning curve.

    Conclusions
    Jeffries had 11 known professional fights going into his title fight with Fitzsimmons and all of his opponents had been either contenders or gatekeeper types. It is my contention that he was matched harder in his first two years than any other heavyweight champion. Joe Louis attained the title in a shorter period and fought challengers of a similar quality but had a lot more ring experience going into this title fight.

    All but four of these fights had been won by knockout and five of them had been won inside the first four rounds. Given the level of the competition and Jeffries inexperience this is nothing short of remarkable

    The average weight of Jeffries pre title opponents was 189 lbs. This is probably not a million miles from the average size of the pre title opponents of Sonny Liston for example. Jeffries also fought a significant number of punchers in his early fights.

    I have to seriously question whether any other heavyweight in history could have fought the same pre title opposition as Jeffries under the same conditions without picking up a loss.
     
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Very good.

    Ruhlin. My impression, given that no additional points were awarded for KD's, was that Jeffries closed very very strongly in this fight, and possibly needed that finish to get his well earned draw? My memory of Pollack's treatment is maybe of a closer fight than yourself.


    Mexican Pete - Was it not inferred by Pollack that Pete had unofficial stoppage losses on his record? He certainly indicated that he had losses that were not publicised going in.


    I agree with what you say in your conclusion.
     
  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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  4. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Jeffries has one question mark hanging over him,as far as I am concerned.
    How would he cope with men his own size, or bigger? Apart from the two fights with Ruhlin he was a virtual giant taking on small heavies and light heavies . Jeffries major victories were not only over men considerably lighter than himself , but, in the case of Corbett,and Fitzsimmmons ,considerably older and inactive.
    Should he be penalized because ,through no fault of his own ,these men were older ,past their prime, and smaller?
    If the answer is yes ,I think we have a Marciano parallel, except Marciano was a small heavyweight himself.


    Denzil Batchelor wrote a biography of Jack Johnson ,in it he was at some pains to emphasize Johnson was a late developer.The same could not be said for Jeffries.

    Jeffries was a precocious talent ,maybe not in boxing ability,but in physical endurance and with significant power.
    From the start Jeffries was mixing successfully with top class boxers.
    I discount the Jackson fight because even while Jackson was in the UK ,after the Slavin fight, his chief sparring partner wrote a letter to the papers stating Jackson was deep in the grip of alcoholism,he then contracted TB ,was inactive for several years, so the result is meaningless imo.
    25-30 years ago Jeffries was in the middle of my top ten ,over the last 15 years he has dropped progressively lower ,till now he does not make it.
    I would not argue with anyone who has him featured in their ten however.
    Jeffries was a dominant Champion, and did all that was asked of him ,except for a narrow window when he might have fought Johnson.
    Personally I think his achilles heel would have been modern big men with fast feet and quick jabs ,but that holds true for just about anyone.
     
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I wish he had more fights.
     
  6. Sweet Pea

    Sweet Pea Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    Great stuff. He packed about as much quality opposition as was possible in such a small amount of fights. I rate him highly, for certain. What I'm uncertain of is just how high, given the depth at the top of the Heavyweight division.
     
  7. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

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    Janitor, fantastic thread :good

    But regarding Choynskis weight. I was under the assumption he was 180lbs for both this fight and the Walcott fight. Boxrec has him listed at 167 and 163 respectively. Could you clear this up for me please, if anyone can, you can.
     
  8. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

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    Excellant, very informative.
     
  9. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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  10. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Judging a fighters weight in this period is verry difficult because there were no official weigh ins and they basicaly reported their own weights. Their claims were often inacurate and self serving, and were only challenged if the fighter had to weigh in under a given weight.

    The SanFrancisco Chronicle gave Choynski's weight as 171lbs going into the Jeffries fight, though he had been cited as 167lbs by some papers earlier. In the case of the Walcott fight it is likley that he understated his weight because he was facing a much smaller man.
     
  11. Russell

    Russell Loyal Member Full Member

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    Didn't Jeffries potentially have something like 40 odd unrecorded pro bouts?
     
  12. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

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    So effectively he would be conceding more weight than previously noted. I'm genuinely not trying to pick fault, would like to get to the bottom of it. Because there IS a difference between 180 and 170, against someone like Jeffries who is supposedly 200+. For purely trivia basis I'm interested in the correct amount of weight Walcott gave up to Choynski, but I guess that's another thread entirely...
     
  13. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Perhaps if you include sessions where he took on all comers as champion.

    Over the period discussed in this threas I can see evidence for two unrecorded fights and probably not a lot more.
     
  14. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    On the first point, yes Choynski probably did give up the best part of 40-50 lbs.

    Lets not forgett though that Choynski was a seasoned veteran who had a track record of butchering oponents the size of Jeffries. He was bigger than the Billy Conn who fought Joe Louis and probably hit harder.

    Not a nice matchup at this stage of your career.

    In terms of Choynski Walcott the reported weight difference is probably understated. Choynski was probably a few pounds bigger and Walcott was probably a few pounds smaller.
     
  15. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

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    Right. Thanks for clearing that up, as well as we can in retrospect. I'm off to do some reading up.