I think when people are referring to the term "super heavyweight" they are generally looking at heights that start at about 6'4", and weights that range around 220 upward.. There have been super heavys around all through out history... Ed Dunkorst was a giant when Bob Fits beat him. Jess Willard and Big Bill Tate were super heavys in Dempsey's time.. Primo Carnera, Buddy Baer and Abe Simon fell into that category as well.... The 1990's through the 2000's, had the largest crop of them though, and more specifially ones who were truly talented, in good shape and who were rated at the top of their division. For me, there is more to being a "good" super heavy than just meating the size peramters.. While Abe Simon, Buddy Baer and Primo Carnera were all very large and very good fighters, I'm not sure that they possesed the full all around package, of size, strength, speed, power, stamina, chin, athleticism, skill, etc.. Sure, they certainly had some of those things, but they definitely lacked in a few of the major areas.. There is no doubt in my mind that Marciano could have easily KO'd a 6'5, 230 lb fighter of average or less than average ability.. But its a totally different ball game all together when facing a guy like Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe, or the Klitschko's who were a bit more well rounded... This is where a lot of people fall short in their debates about " size not being everything. " You have to look at the whole picture, and not just one aspect of it.
Shkor had lost 18 of his previous 37 fights and had been kod in 1 round in his last fight, 6 months previously, by Walcott .
This is what I've been saying all along.... There is a HUGE difference between a big man who can fight, and a guy who is just plain big.. Dave Jaco was a 6'6", 240 lbs fighter and most of the same men who kicked his ass found that they could not duplicate the performance against men of similar size who were TALENTED.... Rocky Marciano beating Johnny Shkor provides no measurable standard of proof that he'd fair well against a Riddick Bowe or a Lennox Lewis.
IMO Marciano, Ruby Rob, Billy Conn, late-80's Holyfield, and many other greats weighing in under 200lbs would have a good chance at trouncing someone like Arreola. Arreola struggled with a very mediocre small HW in Minto before his brute size and strength won out. That's more a testament to Minto's lesser durability and skill (surpassed by all those mentioned above) than to Arreola being too big to lose to a non-SHW. This will only be reaffirmed if Adamek (who's an above average talent but nowhere near the level of any of the men mentioned above) manages to beat him.
LOL, so you want to match a green upcoming Arreola against the best Rocky version ? That is dumb beyond dumb. Why don't you put Marciano in with Lewis/Tyson?Bowe/WK etc when they bwere at their absolute nprime while he was feasting on total tomatoe cans ? I am no fan of Arreola but the man has heart, brute strengh and a way above average chin plus despite looking fat has exceptional stamina sa witnessed in the VK fight were he never slowed down and kept (unsuccessfully) coming................Marciano bring s the fight to you and that is Arreola bread and butter to slug it out .............if he would be such a bum the huge VK would have gone toe to toe with and blew him out..............not the case ......this would be a life and death struggle for Rocky and if I would be a betting man I put my dough on the Mexican every single time. Adamek has to stay on his bike and box to have a chance , if he fades which he has done numerous times in the past and wants to trade he is going to be toast. Fact. I am going on a limb and believe Adamek will be stopped period no matter if he boxes or trades.
OK. Talk to the thread starter. He's the one who proposed it in the first place. http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6213082&postcount=4 BTW, Arreola being "green" is a crock. With 29 pro fights and 200+ as an amateur, there's no excuse for his present "skills" (or lack thereof). He relies on his size and strength, and anybody who can effectively take those away without getting themselves hurt can beat him. The only thing green about Arreola is the traffic light in his hypothalamus.
LOL Isn't that the truth though? I laugh my ass off at these claims that we get these days.. It's hilarious how a guy in his late 20's, with nearly 30 pro fights, and hundreds of amateur bouts is all of a sudden labled as being "green".
atsch How could I forget Holyfield and Moorer? Good question. I would say 6'5" 230 Lbs, but that's just an idea more than a hard fact.
That isn't what the thread is really asking for though. It's Marciano vs. a generic super HW w/decent power and The Fighting Sailor fits the bill. Lewis, Bowe, and the K-Brothers are the only real successful modern Super Heavies. The quality drops off considerably with the second tier guys being Briggs, McCline, and Grant. All three were protected prospects that still got badly exposed and fail to oblivion. They probably wouldn't fair much better than a Shkor in the 40s and 50s. Future "Worst Lineal Champion Ever" Briggs upset and humilated by the unherald 6'0" Darrol Wilson, who just swarmed and crowded him with short hooks and uppercuts like a lesser Marciano or Frazier would. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKduOqSmeBY&feature=related[/ame] Maybe I'm too believe Wilson hit harder than Rocky, Satterfield, Moore, Louis, Walcott, Dempsey, or Frazier because he hovered in the 210-215 range a a pro.
Once you've been here long enough, you'll eventually learn to accept that thread topics rarely make it through 4 pages without morphing into another discussion...:good
Yeah, were was that superman Marciano at 30 fights ? He must have been champ for ages and then had 20 defenses................
So I guess when Chris Arreola is maybe 35 years old, and has about 45 fights, he'll be in his prime...
Magoo, There is the converse question too, and it has a revealing answer. Which of Lennox's and Riddick's opponents caused them the most problems? Answer: Holyfield, Mercer, McCall, Rahman and Mavrovic (Tyson would have been another if the fights had been made in the late 80s or early 90s) ie either former cruisers or medium size heavies (5 11 to 6 2).
Excellent post. To list a bunch of average fighters of size just to show Marciano did not just fight cruisers proves little. No one here, I think, believes big fighters without a certain skill set have a shot against Rocky. Determining the skill set is the key. I personally feel there have been more than the few mentioned above that would beat Rocky ... size maters based on styles and Rocky won based primarily on strength, stamina and power ... I just don't see that as a positive for him with his physical limitations ...