Prime Jim Corbett v. prime Jim Jeffries

Dude,

You ever see the '42 flick: "Gentleman Jim" with Errol Flynn? CLASSIC!:good

MR.BILL:deal

 

Jeffries did not have the one punch firepower of Fitz imo.
He tended to wear his man down.Fitz sparked several men with one punch ,including bodyshot kos.His results over Sharkey are considerably more impressive than Jeffries.

Jeffries last few fights before his comeback were over comebacking 40 ,and 37 year olds and a decidedly average Munroe ,throw in his long term sparring partner Kennedy ,and Ruhlin who was retired by his corner fully conscious.he improved his results against Fitz and Corbett because they had declined , and it was 3 years before either of them got back in the ring with him.
Jeffries was busy defending against his sparring partner Kennedy.
Griffin who was described as looking like a famine sufferer.
Finnegan who was scared to , death and ,was **** to start with,and, a man he had allready beaten 5' 7' Sharkey.

 

Russ, I think a case can actually be made that, at his peak, he was the best heavyweight before Dempsey and the modern age began.

He may have already been in decline due to heavy drinking prior to knocking out Charley Mitchell in Jacksonville at age 27, yet he may have been the rightful winner in Reno at 31. (I realize Fitzsimmons was older at 33, but he'd also taken better care of himself.) Fitz got up at George Siler's count of seven, but the film shows him grabbing onto Corbett as he falls, delaying the count, and Siler's uneven cadence is further interrupted as he pushes Jim farther back before his toll of four. There is no question that if he'd picked up the count from a ringside official, that Bob would have been down longer than ten as it happened. Siler was out of position when it first happened, and he took a few precious moments to get between them to produce separation before even starting the count. Maybe Fitz would have been able to beat a prompt ten second count, perhaps not.

There's no question that Fitz found himself over matched by Corbett's speed early on, and he admitted as much in his dressing room immediately after. We all know he told Jim he'd never fight him again. Bob seemed to believe he caught lightning in a bottle, and I agree. Given a series between the two, I have no doubt Corbett prevails. Far more times than not, I also think Jim wins a first time match by knockout.

Sullivan was a sucker for Corbett's feints. Even if at his peak, John L. would have been susceptible to this. When at his best, Sullivan was described as being slow of foot, something to consider when contemplating a prime for prime match up. (Still, I understand the case for Sullivan over Corbett, as I've proposed the same for Dempsey over Tunney.)

Over 15 rounds, Corbett simply out hustles Johnson. Jack was too passive and reactive to prevail in that situation, and Jim had a fine body attack.

I'd have to do more careful thinking regarding Corbett's all time place, but there's no doubt he gets short shafted much as Tunney sometimes does.

 

QUOTE]
Duodenum
When at his best, Sullivan was described as being slow of foot,
[/QUOTE]

Curious what your source is, remembering you qualified "at his best". My general impression is that a boxer with exceptional footwork -- which I grant Corbett had -- might stay away; but calling Sullivan "slow" seems a stretch. Sulllivan was compared to a big cat, and described as moving as though set on springs. Choyinski, who sparred him, said Sullivan was quicker than himself (as well as hitting harder).

The vast majority of comment was that Fitzsimmons had performed far better in his second fight with Jeffries; I think it's much more plausible that the second fight ended earlier because Jeffries was becoming a more active, aggressive fighter and, as he gradually moved away f

 

Great post, thank you.

Your thoughts on Tunney, now that I've got you opening up? :good

 

Curious what your source is, remembering you qualified "at his best". My general impression is that a boxer with exceptional footwork -- which I grant Corbett had -- might stay away; but calling Sullivan "slow" seems a stretch. Sulllivan was compared to a big cat, and described as moving as though set on springs. Choyinski, who sparred him, said Sullivan was quicker than himself (as well as hitting harder).

McVey. Ive allways thought that prime Sullivan was quick on his feet, and into the attack.

The vast majority of comment was that Fitzsimmons had performed far better in his second fight with Jeffries; I think it's much more plausible that the second fight ended earlier because Jeffries was becoming a more active, aggressive fighter and, as he gradually moved away f[/quote]


McVey.
One thing Fitz had to his advantage in the second fight was that he was not suffering from a hangover as he was in their first encounter, this time he knew he had to take Jeffries seriously ,whereas before he had underestimated the big man drastically.

 

A San Francisco Chronicle account specifically describing Sullivan as being "slow of foot and getting winded," and becoming, "increasingly frustrated" was in reference to his March 6, 1884 match with George M. Robinson, who fell 66 times in 12 minutes of action to avoid getting punched and turned his back in running from Sullivan. His goal was merely to meet the challenge of lasting the four round distance, and he succeeded before a booing crowd, receiving a $5000 payoff for managing this. John L. was 25 years of age at the time, and issboxWRECK records him as weighing 190 pounds for an exhibition one month earlier, but again, it must be conceded this is issboxWRECK. If true though, that weight suggests he was in decent shape for this. (My Ring Encyclopedia does not record his weight for this one, although it does enter some matches issboxWRECK omits, like his career ending second round knockout of Jack McCormick in Grand Rapids on March 2, 1905 at age 46. Of course Fleischer is no more of an infallible source than issboxWRECK.) However, Sullivan was still only 25 years old at the time.

There's no question about John L.'s hand speed being superior. But he did not invariably succeed in stopping all he challenged to go a full four rounds with him, and he had to be prepared for the certainty that most of them would use any means necessary to achieve the lucrative payoff which came by doing this. ($5000 was a very nice chunk of change 125 years ago.)

Corbett was hardly the typical challenger out of the audience with no boxing experience. We can see how he moved in Enoch Rector's Carson City Kinetoscope footage. Sullivan had seen running, but he'd never encountered Corbett's particular use of footwork. Jim studied fencing, and used those techniques to stick his left in his opponents faces.

 

One of my very first posts on ESB Classic, (if not my absolute first one), had to do with what would have happened if Gene had been wiped out in the 1929 Stock Market Crash, and was forced to continue as champion for financial reasons. My conclusion was that, as insanely self disciplined and intelligent as he was, he could have held the HW Championship until Louis came along, and would have forced Joe to go the full 15 to lift the title.

Tunney's peak performance was in his final bout against Heeney. He was a late bloomer who was actually continuing to improve when he chose to retire. (He was also getting gradually heavier with increased strength.) Gene was defending the title at a rate of once per year. At that pace, I could see him retaining the championship until around the age of 40.

Jack Britton was welterweight champion until he was 37. Gene did not compete as often, didn't need to concern himself with making a weight limit, and again, was getting stronger with no sacrifice of speed and mobility.

The heavyweight division between Tunney and Louis came to be referred to as, "The Seven Year Famine." I just don't see any of the champions between them beating Gene in a title fight. Tunney was insanely iron willed and focused, and he wasn't likely to weigh much more than 200 solid and mobile pounds, no matter how old he got. He'd certainly break Jack Johnson's record as the oldest heavyweight champion, and Walcott might never have held it.

For Louis, taking the title from Gene would have been no stroll in the park. Tunney studied films as carefully as Schmeling did, and he certainly had the right hand and footwork to give Joe fits. He also had a first rate chin, tremendous recuperative powers, and nobody who saw his opening match with Greb ever questioned his heart.

 

At any distance I have to go with Jeffries in this matchup...as long as he knows the number of rounds scheduled in advance, to train for it properly.

 

Not wishing to misdirect this thread, but one thing that amazes me about Corbett is the way that he pulled everything back together after the tragic death of his parents.

How did he come back from that to give Jeffries the toughest fight of his championship?

 

To be fair though, Jeffries did stop Corbett with a body shot as well.

There will always be some debate as to what extent Corbett was stopped due to exhaustion against Fitz.

 

I have allways understood Corbett was kod by a hook to the head.

I don't deny Jeffries had power ,he certainly hurt Ruhlin and Sharkey.
Just not in Fitz's class.

I have never encountered exhaustion ,as an excuse for Corbett losing to Fitz.
He was fully conscious when writhing on the floor, his wind completely taken from him by the left to the stomach.
Fitz himself told his corner he would stop Corbett in about 7 /8 rds,but then modified it ,"I'll catch im in the next few rounds ,probably with a body punch it aint so easy to it is ead".according to Bob Davis who was in the corner, in fact Davis said, Fitz named the round.
Fitz later said he gave Corbett the identical finish he administered to Sharkey,as he called it a "shift to the wind".

 

The fight did seem to be going Corbett's way until the body shot KO although Fitzsimmons was coming on stronger in the end:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU_sT_FvyWU[/ame]


Corbett unloading combinations on Fitzsimmons at 1:25.

Fitzsimmons seemed to be physically stronger than the bigger Jim Corbett.

 

misfire!