Rocky Marciano vs. a generic super HW w/ decent power

You could just as easily turn that around and say that the fighters who gave Tyson and Holyfield the most problems were large men who stood anywhere from 6'3" - 6'5" 220 lbs -250.. Ie, Lewis, Bowe, Tucker, Ruddock, Douglas, Green, etc.... It works both ways.... I will ad that Tyson, Holyfield and Mercer were not small men. Neither were McCall Rahman or the others.... Calling Holyfield a former cruiserweight can be misleading... In his heavyweight form he stood 6'2", weighed 210 lbs, and was solid muscle from head to toe... Not many of those in the 40's and 50's. He'd be considered a large fighter in those days... What's more, Tyson, Holy, Mercer, etc.. Were men who came up in an era of larger heavyweights who were well skilled, trained etc.. Therefore, they were well accustomed to facing that type of opponent, whereas Marciano and Louis Weren't...

 

It takes more then a decent fighter to defeat Marciano no matter how big he is.

 

aint that the truth.:happy

 

Holyfield was a excellent boxer/puncher who was 6'2" with a 78" reach.

Mercer was a 6'2", 230 pound tank , 45 solid pounds on Rocky with a proven chin against the hardest super heavyweight punchers ...

McCall was 235, Rachman was 235, Mavrovic was over 6'3", 218 with a cast iron chin and a long reach ...

I just don't get why the style challenge Rocky would face is so blatently ignored.

 

If Holyfield is 6'2 1/2" as listed than I was 6'5" when I met him. In reality, he might be closer to 6' 1/2." Quite a few fighters have disputed heights but Holyfield's always struck me as being the most exaggerated..until probably only 5'11" Sultan at least, several whole inches in both cases.

[url]http://www.celebheights.com/s/Evander-Holyfield-4506.html[/url]

In the 40s and 50s, Holyfield wouldn't have to struggle to bulk up to consistently meet a 200 lb minimum and would probably be going into fights at his best natural mature weight...185-190 lb. He'd be about heavyweight Ezzard Charles size. The best he physically looked at heavy was 205 lb in the first Bowe fight. He was 30 lbs lighter and despite losing the fight, had a great deal of success brawling with the bigger Bowe before his workrate dropped off and he started getting caught. Though Holyfield always liked to fight in spurts anyway.

He didn't have the punching power or the stamina but he basically fought Bowe like a Frazier or Marciano would in that first fight...minus the body work maybe. I think a case could be made for Rocky and Smoking Joe to give Bowe a tough fight.

Before fatiguing, Evander having early success in swarming and smothering Bowe with short hooks and overhands.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElB5kiepP5k&feature=related[/ame]

 

While I appreciate your testimony, I have to ask the following questions.

1. Were you specifically standing back to back, in an effort to compare height, or were you casually saying hello from a distance?

2. Were you standing up strait, while he was casually slouching? or were you both standing in full posture?

3. What kind of soles were you wearing? Were you in cowboy boots, while Evander was in sandles..

4. How close were you? were you face to face and shaking hands, or was he 30 feet away?

Indeed, but for the past 20+ years, Holyfield's height has been consistently listed as being 6'2 1/2", with the half inch never being omitted, and from multiple sources.

This weblink is nothing more than another chat forum, and for the brief period that I glanced at it, saw just as many posts testifying that he was 6'2 1/2" as there were ones saying that he was less... In some cases, posters claimed that he was maybe a half to full inch shorter, and I think even a few had him listed as tall as 6'3"... Hardly a credible source.....

Your doing a fair amount of speculating, and at any rate, when comparing Holyfield to other greats of the past, I typically look at fighters in terms of how they ACTUALLY WERE, and not how they MIGHT have turned out under different circumstances...

Fair enough, but being 205 and firmly built is a far cry from being 185, and less accustomed to fighting men of far greater size..

I doubt it... Holyfield fought well in their first fight, but ultimately LOST, because he was overpowered due to fighting the other man's fight. He did not have the strength to impose himself on Bowe the way that he had initially tried. In the rematch, he chose to box and use the jab a bit more, ultimately giving him greater success. Neither Frazier nor Marciano would have employed this tactic, and given their lesser size among other deficiencies, would have lost by a wider margin than Holyfield did in his first meeting with Riddick..

[/QUOTE]

I've seen it many times...

 

takes something more than generic to beat a guy like Rocky

 

I've seen it many times...[/quote]


-We shook hands face to face, I was probably slouching more than him. Evander always has great posture. It was the Grand Opening Ali Center Gala, we were both in tuxes and dress shoes. Possible he lost a little height over time but doubtful he was ever approaching 6'3". I didn't break out a tape measurer though..that would be awkward.

I can assure you it wasn't anything like this :

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6cBmrNbAK4[/ame]



-I wouldn't bother much with the chat postings, the actual site listings are fairly accurate in general however. In the Olympics and I believe even early in his pro career he was officially listed at 185 cm or 6'1".

Back to back with a most likely legit 6'3" Larry Holmes. Larry's tilting his head but he's definetly a bit taller.

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-Its all speculation in fantasy fights but there are certainly variables that should be intelligently considered if you want to make a fair argument. Magically transporting fighters through time might make things simpler but it ignores improtant factors that should be given more weight if we are to dwell on them, no pun intended. I can't see a reason for Holyfield to take great pains in bulking up to 210 lbs in a 175lb limit division.

-Oh well....I would have to strongly disagree there. The problem is that Holyfield fought the wrong fight for himself, he just couldn't be Joe Frazier or Marciano no matter how hard he tried in that fight, though the success he had with that unusual for him style is certainly cause to raise an eyebrow if Bowe were to face someone more provenly efficient and effective in smothering and swarming.

 

holfield inches are smaller than a real inch. in his book he talks of tyson being 5'9. I also met evander, hes six foot. evander was 147 when he graduated from high school.

 

Not sure about much of this.

Mercer was actually only 6 1. He was an obese 238lb when he fought Lewis in '96, but a much trimmer 224lb against Holyfield just a year earlier in '95. He had an average frame - with Marciano's dedication to training I believe he would be fighting at ~205lb.

McCall was 6 2 and often fought in the mid 220s.

Rahman was 6 2 and a half and fought at 224lb versus Holyfield in 2002, although admittedly his weight varied a lot.

Mavrovic was 214lb when he went the distance with Lewis.

All the other stuff "great boxer puncher" "cast iron chin" "long reach" may be true, but what does it have to do with the debate? Obviously you are aware Marciano also had a cast iron chin, and additionally would rather have died than lost a boxing match...

I was merely establishing that all the big guns had most of their toughest fights against men nearer to the stature of Joe Louis / Rocky Marciano, not the the Gonzalez', Grants', Briggs, Golotas and Brunos of this world.

 

Interesting. I can specifically recall Tyson being listed on a tale of the tape as 5'9 in one of his early title fights (probably Bruno). But every time i have ever brought it up, people think i am crazy and all suggest he is somwhere between 5'10 and 5'11. Maybe Holyfield is right, and Tyson's size is a little overstated? If his is overstated, how many others are?

 

Not necessarily.
Firstly, I've seen Frazier box and move a bit when he thinks it's wise to do so. He was playing with that bum Ron Stander, who was bull strong, and using a lot of lateral movement. Frazier was always in attack mode, but he could be a bit cute with it at times. He'd probably kill me if I told him that to his face though.
And Holyfield didn't move at box that much in the 2nd Bowe fight to really mark him as starkly different to a Frazier. He brawled quite a bit.

As for Rocky, he plodded forward like a steamroller but he could be patient, and he was reasonably defensively minded - and when he wasn't he'd alway make sure to land one if he took one. And his power shouldn't be underestimated, maybe he doesn't need to hit Bowe as much as Holyfield did to get him out of there.

There are no foregone conclusions in those match-ups.

 

:good
Tale-of-the-tape measurements should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Alan Minter is listed at 5'9 with Hagler being half an inch taller on boxrec.
I saw the two fight, and Minter's a lot taller than Hagler.

Tale-of-tape measurements are often wrong, or old measurements or lazily measured, or just made up.

But the weight on the scales is accurate.

 

Going by film there is 5 main heights of heavyweights spread out over history- they just weigh more depending on training of the era.
marciano, Tyson and frazier were about the same height.
holyfeild, ellis, charles and walcott, rahman, liston were about the same height.
Louis, schmeling, dempsey, tunney, thomas, berbick were the same height.
ali, holmes, max baer and foreman were about the same height.
bowe, lewis, willard, carnera, buddy baer were about the same height.

a good big un always beats a good little un. However IMO a good big un who boils down to his lowest natural weight where he has peak strength, speed and stamina will beat a gud big un weighing over his lowest natural weight.