How much credit do you give Willard, Dempsey, Tunney ?

How much credit do you give .....

Jess Willard ............ for his win over 37 year old Jack Johnson.
Jack Dempsey ............. for his win over inactive Jess Willard (coming off a 3-year layoff).
Gene Tunney .............. for his win over inactive Jack Dempsey (coming off a 3-year layoff).

 

In all cases quite a lot.

Despite the circumstances under which these wins took place you would have been hard put to find a fighter at the time who could have pulled them off.

This is especialy true of the latter two wins which were dominant in nature.

 

They all deserve at least some degree of credit.

Tunney deserves the most credit IMO, as many people simply could not imagine him beating Dempsey.

Dempsey at the very least deserves credit for blowing Willard out like he did.

Willard was given a lot of advantages to tip the scales in his favor (ie: 40-something round distance, the hot Cuban location), but I think he still deserves some credit for withstanding Johnson's early attacking and then outboxing him before KOing him.

 

In hindsight:

Willard beating Johnson was the biggest upset.

Dempsey and Tunney were uquestionably elite level challengers taking on a champion coming off a period of inactivity. Hindsight is of course a wonderfull thing but their winnig was always a distinct possibility.

The only thing that should have surprized anybody about those fights is how one sided they were.

 

A great deal of credit. They were heavyweight champions, two of them among the very greatest. Willard pulled off one of the toughest victories ever for the title. Dempsey tore a swath through the division and electrified the sport. AndiIn my book Tunney is top 15 all time pound for pound.

I'm sure some revisionist bull**** is to follow.

 

A KO win over a champion is always a great win. The fighters were not as active in those days but an impressive win is just that. They lived by the sword and died by it in those days, you think they would learn by others mistakes but the game with the gloves was still new. To me Great is Great and all of these men did great things in these fights.

 

All deserve some credit.

Willard got himself in very good shape and showed durability. He was a big guy fighting in the same heat as Johnson and took a fair cuffing.

Dempsey deserves credit for the manner of his triumph. I should note, too, Dempsey threw crisp up till just before the third knock down -- he didn't start 'swinging' until Jess's ability to defend himself was shot.

1926 Dempsey might well still have pulled it out had any other hvy of that time been in the ring with him, so Tunney deserves credit, too.

 

I give these fighters a decent amount of credit too.

But I wonder how much would be given to a challenger if a heavyweight champion were to take 3 years off nowadays.

 

True. However, heavyweight champs don't get lucrative film roles these days that keep them out of the ring. Even Fitz, Sullivan and Corbett took off time to do traveling shows and exhibitions... Honesty Hearts and Willing Hands type of crap. Different era indeed.

 

This. :good

I don't think Johnson-Willard and Dempsey-Tunney were that onesided.

 

Did Dempsey even win a round in their first fight?

 

Not much, if any.

 

If remember right I thought he won two. But then there is the rematch with the long count which I factor in. I give Tunney the most credit due to Dempsey having his best in between their fights.

 

In the case of Dempsey-Willard, it was really the nature of how it unfolded that was so astonishing. Jess had previously come off an extended layoff to outbox Frank Moran rather easily, and he would come off an even longer layoff following Toledo to hand Floyd Johnson the first stoppage defeat of his career in May, 1923. (The Auburn Bulldog had just dominated Fred Fulton over 12 rounds the month before Jess took him out, and Floyd started the year by slamming the door on a nine match winning streak by Bill Brennan over 15 rounds.) It took several rounds for Firpo to finally chop him down. That Dempsey beat Willard is no great upset. (Even Leon Spinks might have been able to pull this one off.) The sudden way he did it is astounding, even when factoring in the age and inactivity of big Jess. (I'm thoroughly convinced that Tyson would have settled for a decision in 12, just as he did with Smith and Tucker. Ditto Foreman, Liston and Max Baer. Louis is the only other heavyweight champion with the temperament and a chance to dispatch Jess like that.)

Willard fought a smart fight in Havana, taking full advantage of the 45 round limit, and prepared himself accordingly. Not sure if Johnson could have ever prevailed in that situation. Could he have been able to successfully defend his title against a Chuvalo or Cobb if faced with that rule set and the diminished physical condition he'd allowed himself to deteriorate into? (If Bonecrusher was facing Johnson in Havana, I would have bet the mortgage on Smith.) This match is one of the reasons I would not favor distances greater than 15 rounds. Boxing ought to be about more than toughness and endurance.

Unlike Willard, Dempsey suffered significantly from inactivity, and his style of swarming was not favorable to sustaining a long career. Still, Gene could not have been perceived as any kind of genuine threat until taking out a fading Gibbons. But while Tommy was in decline, he'd never been stopped. Tunney knocked him out in impressive fashion.

Jack was far removed from what he was in Toledo, while Gene was still improving when he retired. A peak for peak showdown would have been something to see! The fact remains that Tunney was utterly dominant when they did meet, enough so to convince me that Jack would always have had to produce a stoppage to beat him. (In a hypothetical prime for prime meeting, I do believe Toledo Dempsey stops the Gene of the Heeney fight, but I'll take the Fifth on whether or not Jack would have been able to do this to the mythical Tunney of 1929 and 1930. We'll never know how much better Gene was going to get, while Dempsey's peak ended with Willard.)

Dempsey signed to defend against Wills before Tunney in a match which politics and the memory of Johnson's incendiary reign prevented from taking place. Harry got the $50,000 guarantee Jack posted for their canceled bout, and lifetime financial security. Dempsey lost an opportunity to remain competition sharp in a pairing most expected him to win (including Langford). I don't think that defeating Wills would have given Jack the work necessary to be in condition to beat Tunney, but he could have been more competitive.

 

I have to give Tunney that he did not come up short like Sharkey did vs the rusty Dempsey but Tunney got a scare and felt the power of J.D.in the battle of Long count despite that fact that Dempsey s tin man legs needed oiling.