Joey Maxim couldn't punch?

Well, I think it is a hard sell that welters and middles punch as hard as the hardest punching lightheavies and heavies. I remember LaMotta himself saying that Robinson did not punch nearly as hard as Satterfield or Nardico when the two were on the "The Way it Was" TV show with Curt Gowdy.

I think that when all is said and done, Archie Moore punched harder than Robinson. Do you really see Robinson stopping Bivins, Baker, Lavorante, Besmanoff, Lovell? Embrell Davidson with one punch?

The Olson fights came when Maxim was older. LaMotta was not fighting world-class opposition at that age.

Bottom line--Maxim's chin stacked up against bigger, harder punching men over a longer period of time, and he was in fact stopped less often. "Heart" might indeed be an issue here. LaMotta was stopped three times (not counting Fox) while Maxim was stopped only once and Joey had more fights, and I think tougher fights, against bigger hitters.

 

1. I certainly stand corrected on my quote. My memory failed me. And my line "Robinson did not punch nearly as hard" is not what LaMotta said. In this clip, though, he did say Satterfield punched harder. There is another clip from somewhere, possibly the ESPN film of this fight which they first showed on its 50th anniversary in 2001, in which LaMotta said that Robinson was the "best" puncher he fought, explaining that he put his punches together best, etc, but that Satterfield and Nardico were bigger guys who punched harder.

2. The size comparision between Maxim and LaMotta overlooks that they fought in different weight classes--Maxim often at heavyweight.

3. In absolute terms, ignoring p4p, I think there is no real doubt Maxim had the better chin. Robinson, Nardico, and Murphy stopped LaMotta. None stopped Maxim. Maxim has been quoted as saying Robinson hit him harder than anyone, but I have watched their entire fight on film several times and not only is Maxim never down, he never seems severely hurt to me.

4. Moore is irrelevant as I think he punched harder than anyone LaMotta fought. Maxim went the 15 round distance with Moore three times. I don't think LaMotta would have. I would question if he could have gone 15 with Moore even once in three tries, especially at the age Maxim was when he fought Moore.

5. It is true Maxim was better defensively, although I don't think LaMotta was the face fighter you are making him out to be. He knew how to roll with and slip punches and it was hard to get a clean shot at his chin.

6. A case can be made for LaMotta p4p, but I think there is still a strong case for Maxim.

**Just as an aside, it is interesting that Maxim was a 6-5 favorite in this fight. He must have done very well in their second fight. I also think saying Maxim was "hurt again and again" is probably in some sense true, if an overstatement, but this film shows him recovering from a knockdown and fighting very well against one of the best finishers ever.

 

"Even if LaMotta were to fight Moore, I can't ever see him being laid down on the canvas like Maxim was"

LaMotta was knocked down by Danny Nardico. It happened at the end of the seventh round and LaMotta did not make the bell for the eighth. Moore was much bigger than Robinson (about 20 lbs) and most of the other men LaMotta fought. Two guys who were close to Moore's size, Murphy and Nardico, stopped LaMotta. I think it is more than a stretch to say Moore couldn't drop him or stop him.

"When Maxim got hurt, he went into a shell and only did enough to survive"

When he was dropped and hurt against Nardico, Maxim got up to win the decision. I think this is an overstatement. Against Moore, he did not run a marathon. It was obvious he couldn't. You can see Maxim had gone back quite a bit since the Mills and Murphy fights.

Maxim was somewhat of a limited fighter with a weak punch. When he got behind in a fight, there was not a great deal he could do. I suppose one could argue that against Moore, or perhaps Olson or Machen, by the end he was just fighting to survive. He always did though. The "go out on his shield" LaMotta quit on his stool against Murphy and Nardico.

 

Most fans don't realize the circumstances,that prevailed in the Ko Lamotta suffered in 1951,inwhich Robinson, stopped Jake in 13 rounds....I recall there were strong rumors before the bout, that Lamotta was 12 pounds over the 160 lb. limit...Lamotta, by strenuous deprivation, somehow made the weight , but weakened Lamotta greatly...As is known Lamotta held the lead for 8-10 rounds, then his energy left him, and we know the results...I feel Lamotta had the best chin of his times, hands down...Maxim was a great and sturdy boxer, also clever enough to avoid many blows, that Lamotta , because of his boxing style had to absorb...Both tough dudes, Jake, and Joey....In a golden age, to boot...

 

1. Maxim was not fighting a middleweight Moore. Moore actually had trouble making the lightheavy limit as is mentioned in the film you posted. (By the way, many thanks for posting all these wonderful films).

2. We have to disagree on whether he had gone back. I see Maxim as slower of hand and foot.

3. I can't argue that Maxim didn't know how to survive. He did, and so he did survive, while LaMotta was stopped.

4. LaMotta was not stopped in the forties, but then again he did not fight a heavyweight who punched like Hatchetman Sheppard.

5. I think you play ducks and drakes with Maxim and LaMotta getting older. One reason LaMotta had problems in 1951 and 1952 is that he was now fighting bigger men (Robinson had grown into a middle--Murphy and Nardico were big lightheavies). This might have been as much of a factor as aging, although there is no doubt he was going back.

6. The bottom line remains that Maxim was fighting bigger men who I think were stronger punchers.

7. I don't really agree with the "walk-in" arguement. Walk-in fighters such as Dick Tiger were not stopped as often in their careers as LaMotta and fought to a far older age. Maxim fought so many top punchers that there is no way he could have have survived without top defensive skills, regardless of chin.

 

1. "He was known as a good defensive fighter who possessed a very, very solid chin."

I have never claimed any more for him.

2. "Had he fought like Jake LaMotta"

I honestly don't see the point.

3. "He had his own style which was controlled by caution"

The object of the sport is to hit without getting hit. Maxim certainly was not at all cautious about stepping into the ring against the best fighters and the biggest hitters regardless of size.

4. He was weight-drained against Robinson--okay. He was also supposedly poorly trained, etc, against Murphy and Nardico. By the way, both of those guys were also face fighters.

5. Satterfield may have punched harder than Sheppard. Agreed, once he grew into a heavy, but Maxim also fought and outpointed Satterfield. And Bob Foxworth, according to Nat Fleischer, might have been a bigger puncher than either Sheppard or Satterfield before an eye injury ended his career, but Maxim also beat him. Maxim simply has so many more big hitters on his resume than LaMotta that this sort of pick this or that guy arguement doesn't wash. The bottom line here is that LaMotta was not fighting heavyweights like Sheppard, and the biggest punchers he did fight also fought Maxim, and none stopped Maxim.

 

No, Maxim dinot have the power to drop you with one shot. His low KO totals prove it. He made up for that with great accuracy and a steel chin.

 

1. Rather than comparing Tiger to Pastrano, it might be better to compare him to LaMotta. Tiger was only stopped once, by Foster who almost certainly could more than match anyone LaMotta fought for power, and Tiger fought to 41. I would rate him in chin above LaMotta. I would also rate Kid Gavilan, never knocked out, and only down twice in his career, as having a better chin than LaMotta. Both were unquestionably tougher to stop, as were Maxim and Pastrano.

2. Rather than going around in a circle, I accept that Maxim rates very highly on being tough to stop--I think more highly than LaMotta--and this is something which can be judged rather accurately on performance. I think it is extremely abstract to try to separate a fighter's chin from his style and therefore say that a man who fought fewer punchers and got stopped more often is really better because he walked into his opponent. I can judge a fighter concretely, as a whole, but this arguement is just too abstract for me.

3. "How many times did Maxim get hit"---well, plenty.

4. I agreed that LaMotta was weight-drained for Robinson. I am cynical about the excuses about LaMotta not being trained for Murphy or Nardico. Why not? And jumping about in weight as he did throughout his career, I doubt if Maxim was always in peak condition.

 

Bill Heinz said Ray fought a very smart fight he gave ground for the early stages,forcing Jake to use his weight drained legs to catch him.
Truly matador v bull.