Is James Toney an all atg

A few points I have to mention. As far as I know Chavez was p4p number 2 or even one in the early 90s not Toney.

Why the double standard regarding the Jirov and Griffin fights? When he wins a close one it's not debatable, when he loses a close one it is. :think

Why didn't Toney come to Germany to fight DM? Why do you use DM's unwillingness to fight outside of Germany as an excuse for Toney? If you are an atg it does not matter where you fight.

What do you make of Toney's cheating?

 

Toney never won a title at hw. He cheated. No title. He is not as good h2h as you make him out to be. He had quite a few flaws that most elite fighters would be able to expose. However, he has a style advantage over most pressure fighters and a style disadvantage over most pure, slick boxers.

 

Well, in all likelihood Olympic athletes are still getting away with using undetectable and designer drugs. Even HGH is still undetectable, I think.

Let's be realistic, big-money professional sportsmen are often getting away with it. And you have to suspect someone who used as an amateur would use as a pro when the stakes are high.

I think it's fair to guess that Briggs and Golota used. I mean, Briggs is going into the ring looking like Lou Ferrigno. No, actually Ferrigno had a very skinny neck in comparison. Briggs looks like something from WWE wrestling.


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Maybe he just grew naturally over the years with training but I dont see any other heavyweights who grew that much.

This is Briggs in his pro debut :

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVKeBgOJFHU&feature=related[/ame]

True. But wouldn't you guess that he got away with drug use on other occasions too ?

 

Wlad was never caught as an amateur or pro.

You can guess all you want. Guessing shouldn't influence your ranking of fighters. Facts should

In dubio pro reo.

 

That's true.

I dont rank any fighters down for using drugs.

This isn't a legal issue for us here on this forum, we are just speculating.
My speculation is just from a point of interest of the evolution of training and educated speculation on certain fighters. I'm not preaching that they are "bad" or "guilty", I'm just trying to add some reasonable and realistic speculation.
In my opinion, a lot of athletes get away with using. In fact, it is a fact that many who eventually did get caught or admitted using were passing tests for years while they were using.

 

I don't think that there can be any doubt that he is an ATG.

 

Christ no! Drugs cheat automatically disqualifies him as one for me(Same as RJJ.) Also his victory and draw over Mcallum I felt he lost. The second fight was an especially poor decision. So atg? No way.
Thats not to suggest he wasn't a bloody good fighter however. I just can't judge him up with the greats.

 

-Opinions differ here. Some held Chavez to be the #2 P4P fighter in the early 90s, some held Toney to be the #2 P4P fighter. Very few but his fans held Chavez to be the #1 P4P fighter. Pernell Whitaker was regarded by nearly all experts to be the #1 P4P fighter, and rightfully so. Toney was generally seen by experts as the #2 P4P fighter from his spectacular KO win over Littles on.

-There is no double standard here. If you have Jirov beating Toney, you cannot score fights. It was close, but still a clear win for Toney. Jirov pressured Toney all night, but his aggression was mostly ineffective. Fights can be close but still have a clear winner. In that regard, Toney-Thadzi was a close fight too, but Toney clearly lost. When it comes to the Toney-Griffin fights, they were both close fights that could've gone either way, depending on how you score fights, but the vast majority of people who saw these fights had Toney winning at least one of them, if not both. That's a fact.

-With all due respect to Michalzewski, who was a very good fighter - he was irrelevant to the division until 1996. His WBO belt was not regarded as being a full title at that time, and he only defended it against mediocre opposition before that time. His fight with Gerard and his cheating against Rocci didn't help him either. Why then should Toney have traveled to Germany to face Michalczewski, when Michalczewski was irrelevant? That wouldn't have made any sense, and such a fight could never have been made. And when Michalczewski really became relevant for the division, Toney already struggled badly and soon disappeared from the big picture for some years. I never criticized Michalczewski for not traveling to the US, but it's a fact that he never did it, and my point was that Toney can't be criticized for not having faced Michalczewski when it wasn't possible for him to do so.

-Toneys drug cheating hurt his legacy, regardless if he did it on purpose or if they were used for medical uses (in the Ruiz fight). Toney was caught two times - against Ruiz, and against Batchelder (in a fight where Batchelder tested positive for the same substances, which is strange). That's why Toney never held the WBA HW belt. For all his other fights, he tested clean, so we must suppose that he was indeed clean, even if we can not be 100% certain. But in my book, Toney has done enough to become an ATG even before he moved up to HW, and his roller-coaster career at HW must be regarded as a 'bonus' to his already great career from MW up to CW.

 

Well he is one of the best counterpunchers of all time and is up there for defence at middleweight, far from a complete fighter though. Great boxers with great footwork or lateral movement can outmaneuvre him as a bout progresses, which is why i'd favour the master tactician in Hopkins over him in a fight. But Mike McCallum did this in i think their first fight and although it worked in the rounds he won, i ultimately gave the fight to Toney, great fighters can overcome a bad styles match up, but then again McCallum would rather fight you than strictly move around you and jab so he was improvising himself a little bit there. Toney is an elite level operator imo wether or not he is considered great.

 

This is what i meant. You've got the styles issues correct in short, but the only part we disagree on is that i do rate him head to head. Clearly beatable, but clearly hard to beat also.

 

I think so yeah. He has great boxing skills, granite chin, did very well at his initial weight and had a very long career fighting much bigger guys. A bit like a latter-day Archie Moore except not quite as good.

 

He is HOF, but not ATG in my mind. When he fought the best guy in his career like Jones he lost. He never became that elite fighter who dominated any great and had several title defenses. He is a great defensive fighter who is a natural fighter. But not ATG.

 

:deal

 

Do you never get tired of getting owned?

The Klitschkos are not subject to Olympic style random urine and blood testing

If Vitali and Wlad wanted to get past a steroids test they can take steroids all the way upto 3-4days before the fight and just stop before hand and pass a urine test.

Passing a urine test on fight night proves nothing

Vitali is a proven steroid user, his brother has a more steroid looking physique

Jones was caught with ripped fuel, and his Sample B didnt test positive, 2 pots of **** are collected at the same time, pot A & B, A tested positive, B did not, hence a prob with the testing

As for proof of Briggs, this is all the proof you need

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Watch them both, you might think he won