Well, he didn't retire though... so let's not pretend that he did. Let us also not pretend that he was somehow washed up when he took on Foreman. Frazier was the betting favorite and rightfully so.
What if Tyson retired before fighting Douglas? 37-0 (33) overall and 10-0 (8) in HW World Title Fights. Wins over Berbick, Smith, Thomas, Tucker, Holmes, Tubbs, M. Spinks, Bruno, and C. Williams among others. What if Holyfield retired at 28-0 (22) overall and 10-0 (7) in World Title Fights at CW and HW. He had already beat Qawi x2, Ocasio, Parkey, Tillman, DeLeon, Thomas, Dokes, Douglas, Foreman, and Holmes among others. 4-0 vs. Hall of Famers. What if Bowe decided to hang em up right before the 2nd fight with Holyfield? He would have been 34-0 (29) overall and 3-0 (2) in HW World Title Fights. He had wins over Thomas, Cooper, Biggs, Tubbs, Seldon, Coetzer, and Holyfield among others.
None of these were advised by their management to retire at time due to their physical conditon. None had a win over the man considered the #1 HW of all time. I can't believe Cooper and Seldon are considered as serious qualifiactions for ATG status.
I rate foreman higher. he knocked out linear champs and joe did not. ironicly I would pick the 69-71' version of frazier to hammer foreman as rediculous as it sounds but since its just a hunch i will stick with the facts. foreman KOd linear champs, frazier did not, he should have fought patterson and Liston.
You're absolutely right, beating Cooper and Seldon means nothing... the point I was trying to make is that you can't just asume a guy is past prime just because he loses a fight after going undefeated for a long time. People did with Tyson even though he was only 23 years old, you are doing it with a 29 year old Frazier. I will admit that Frazier took a beating in his win over Ali and many say he was never the same afterward... he was far from washed up vs. Foreman though.
Jeez, this is a tough one. I like both fighters. Both scrape the top ten. Foreman#7 Frazier#8 Based on his 2nd career i just edge it to george....just.
Foreman! IMO H2H he allways beats Joe! George became 2 time HW champ! Frazier only once! Also holds record for being oldest HW champ! Foreman fought better oponents overall IMO!
I have Foreman and Frazier at numbers 4 and 5 in my heavyweight list. As i said peviously though,it's hard to work out which one to place above the other ! I'm leaning slightly toward Foreman at the moment.
i only have ali and lewis as clear 1 and 2 and not always in that order.following them are larry holmes, foreman, joe louis and sonny liston, again in no particular order.
Funny how easy it is to rank these guys in Siamese fashion: ESPN rankings of the heavyweights, 2007: Joe Louis Muhammad Ali Jack Dempsey Jack Johnson Gene Tunney Rocky Marciano Ezzard Charles George Foreman Joe Frazier Larry Holmes Richard O'Brien (SI Senior Editor), 2009: Muhammad Ali Joe Louis Sonny Liston Larry Holmes Jack Johnson Jack Dempsey George Foreman Joe Frazier Rocky Marciano Lennox Lewis Funny also how, only after his miracle of '94 does George Foreman seem to appear on lists, and above Joe. Before, it was common and respectable to rank Frazier, but not George: a) the World Boxing 1974 Readers Polls has Joe at 6, George nowhere; b) Nat Loubet in 1975 has Joe at 10, George nowhere; c) John Durant in 1976 has Joe at 6, George nowhere; d) the 1978 Big Book of Boxing Reader Poll has Joe at 7, George nowhere; e) Burt Sugar in '91 has Joe at 7, George nowhere; f) Arthur Harris in '92 has Joe at 9, George nowhere. So, yes, McGrain is right: Foreman's portentous comeback has elevated his status...and properly so. I personally have George at 6, Joe at 7. Frazier was an old-school classic: an uncompromisingly tough puncher who would pound down the brawler and track down the stylist, always with a quiet dignity born of self-respect. And George was mostly power --unique power. To bounce Smokin' Joe Frazier around like a basketball, deflate a prime Ken Norton within 5 minutes, then come back 15 years later to impose that power on a prime generation of bulked-up heavyweights, including the man who beat the man for a 10 count. Whew! George had a gift: he hit people and they fell. Ali, who should know a bit about the two, said: "Foreman is twice Frazier."