"I wouldn't say in "much better shape". He beat Brion clearly in both fights and was not overly impressive in either fight against a man he would have easily stopped at his peak. Valdes claimed it was his best ever fight, Ring Magazine named him the "progress of the year" and he didn't go onto lose in 3 years after that. It's possible that he did learn from his losses." -Louis/Brion was by no means a return to form but he was impressive enough to have writers and fans proclaiming that he was the clear number one contender to the Charles/Walcott winner, about as much as Valdez accomplished during his run. Well, undefeated for less than 2 years. And outside of Jackson, Nino also didn't fight another legitimate opponent until Moore and Satterfield...and we know what happened there. "Not speculative when it's the truth. Savold was as old as Louis, he achieved his ranking due to upsetting Bruce Woodcock whom the British wanted to recognize as the champ and Louis did lose to Charles. I don't see what's speculative about that. A win over Charles>A win over Savold." I was refering to speculation that late 51 Joe Louis could not win a 10 rounder over the Charles that Valdez faced that night. "To Jackson's credit he had also beaten Clarence Henry who was one of the top contenders of the era. After losing to Valdes, he went onto beat Ezzard Charles, Bob Baker and gave Floyd Patterson a tough fight. He was once the number 1 ranked heavyweight contender in the world. Brion was a fringe contender. I'd say that Jackson was a level above Brion." Jackson went on to become the number one contender after everyone else faded. He gave a one handed Patterson a tough fight but was humilated in the rematch. Both Jackson and Brion were both tough ranked prospects at the time they met Valdez and Louis. "Valdes at the very least had stamina and strength and he was naturally bigger than Louis. Now I do not think Valdes would have done any better against Marciano than Louis, possibly troubling him early and being stopped late, but fighting old Louis is not the same as fighting Valdes. Is Marciano's only claim to fighting a world class big man fighting an old Joe Louis?" Louis had strength and stamina at the time Rocky faced him, just not enough. Not really concerned about the size equation. Satterfield beat several so called World Class Big Men but was stopped by Marciano victims: Moore, Charles, and Layne. Just not a great measuring stick for ability.
Heinz Neuhaus & Karel Sys were top 10 ranked. 'Doc' Williams was a decent fighter who went onto beat the inconsistent Satterfield. James J. Parker was another decent fighter with size. Louis's performance against Charles strongly suggests that the old version of him could not beat Charles. It's even more speculation to claim that he would or that he was better than Charles at that point. I don't think there's any question that Jackson was the more accomplished contender of the two. Never claimed he was great, but it's a stretch to say that Brion was equally as good or better. He had no real accomplishments to speak of, outside of lasting the distance with better fighters. The best fighters that he beat were beaten by Hurricane Jackson too. Even in the Rex Layne fight, which I have, both fighters looked bad. Most scored it in favour of Layne even if he wasn't impressive. He did not have much strength or stamina. He was pushed around by almost everyone during his comeback and faded badly after 6 rounds against Marciano, even though he had been competitive up to that point. Clearly not the man he was at his peak, or even a couple of years earlier. Marciano not competing against world class 6'3, 210+ lbs opponents is the point I'm mainly trying to make here. Like I said, other fighters that Marciano faced or would be favoured against beat top ranked fighters who were bigger than them, but Marciano didn't. Thus he is not deserving of being called a giant killer of any kind. Harry Greb lost to some middleweights but beat numerous heavyweights. This doesn't automatically mean that the middleweights who beat Greb would have beaten the heavyweights that Greb beat.
1. "I'm talking about the prime Louis"--What has the prime Louis to do with Valdes, or Marciano. No one is disputing that the postwar Louis was past his best. What is in dispute is whether Louis had slipped so far that he was not as good as Valdes. 2. These are actual weights at given ages for the two fighters. I admit I picked light weights for Valdes who varied about 10 lbs from fight to fight. 21---Louis 200 1/2---Valdes 184 1/2 23---Louis 206---Valdes 199 28---Louis 207 1/2---Valdes 206 32---Louis 211 1/4---Valdes 208 33---Louis 211 1/2---Valdes 207 1/2 34---Louis 213 1/2---Valdes 206 Now I admit that higher weights could be found for Valdes--up to 218 in shape, and Louis also fought at 218 and 216. But it also is clear that there is no SIGNIFICANT difference in weight between the two men at the same age. Valdes was slightly taller with a slightly longer reach. He seems to have been broader in the shoulders. Louis carried more weight in his legs which might explain his superior punching power. 3. "The rest did well against 210 + fighters, but Rocky never faced any" He faced five, more than 10% of his opponents. One was ranked highly when he fought him--Louis. One had been ranked--Shkor. One was at least a trial-horse, Wilson. That isn't much, but how many ranked fighters over 210 lbs did most of the champions prior to 1960 face and beat? Jeffries--none. Tunney--none. Liston--interestingly, only Henry Clark, I think was actually ranked when he fought him. Valdes had fallen out of the rankings. Williams was not yet ranked. Johnson--well, old Jeffries, and he lost to Willard. Perhaps McVea was over 210 although a teenager. Even the giant killer Dempsey only faced Willard, Firpo, and Morris as men who would have been ranked if there were rankings and went over 210 lbs. Prior to 1960, there just weren't many. Louis was clearly the best champion who defended his title at over 210 pounds between Johnson and at least Liston, if not Ali. 4. "Rocky never faced a world-class 210 + pounder unless you count old Louis" Old Louis was rated at the top of the heavyweight division, had knocked out the highly rated Lee Savold that summer, and was coming off a one-sided drubbing of Hall-of-Famer Jimmy Bivins. Why wasn't he world-class? Was he losing to a trial-horse such as Bill Gilliam? Was he involved in a disputed decision with a second-rater like Archie McBride? Had he lost four in a row? Did he lose 4 fights in his entire career? The only men who beat the old Louis were arguably the very best heavyweights in the world at the time. You can't say that about Valdes or Baker who were losing to all kinds of far lesser fighters. And, by the way, according to the CBZ, on March 14, 1950, the old Louis knocked out one Nino Valdes in 1 round in an exhibition in Houston.
Well, Louis ko'd Valdes in 1 in an exhibition in 1950. Both Agramonte and Charles were older and going back when they fought Valdes, and Agramonte didn't do anything against Louis but run. And, it should be pointed out, only the very best ever beat Louis. Bill Gilliam, and even Bob Satterfield, were hardly the very best.
Fireman Jim Flynn also KO'd Jack Dempsey in one in 1917. I can't say I give much credibility to a knockout loss Valdes suffered during an exhibition against one of the best punchers of all time while not having fought anybody of note at that point in his career. The very best only beat Louis but more than only the very best would have beaten Louis had he continued fighting after Marciano, see what happened to Charles.
You also picked high weights for Louis. One could easily manipulate it to look like this: 25---Valdes 218---Louis 200 27---Valdes 214---Louis 199 36---Valdes 224---Louis 203 I'd say look at their frames rather than simply weight. Valdes had skinny legs and wide shoulders, Louis was solid all around. I don't think Valdes was any smaller in stature than the average overweight heavyweight of the past 20 years. Louis was the type of a fighter who fought to his best at 205 when he retained all his handspeed and stamina. Valdes was simply a big, strong durable guy who would have probably been a more difficult opponent to face had he done weight training. I believe I made my point fairly clear with this statement: "Rocky never faced a world class 210+ lber unless you count old Louis who in his true prime weighed just 200 pounds." Sure he fought five big men, hardly a staggering amount, but outside of old Louis they weren't any good. Shkor was finished as a fighter when Marciano got to him and did give him atleast some trouble early on with his strength. Maybe Valdes would have too. I'm generous and won't say that the opponent had to be ranked at the exact time when he was beaten. The criticism about Jeffries and Tunney has always been that they didn't face too many big opponents. For both of them you could make the same case as for Marciano that the light heavyweight-sized opponents that they beat did beat bigger opponents, but they themselves didn't. Liston fought Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdes, Henry Clark, Chuck Wepner, Mike DeJohn and others, there's plenty of proof that he could face similar sized men. Jack Johnson is also criticized for facing smaller opponents but he did face 210+ lb young McVea, Jim Jeffries, 220 lb Battling Jim Johnson, Sandy Ferguson who was around 200-210, the strong Jack Thompson. Difficult to estimate the weights and the abilities of these fighters. Johnson struggled with some big but mediocre opponents, perhaps Marciano would have too. We don't know. Savold was equally as old and his high ranking is somewhat questionable for reasons that I've explained earlier. Jimmy Bivins was a hall of famer for what he did in the early 1940's, not for what he was in the early 1950's. Louis was not exactly facing top class opposition who were young and hungry outside of Marciano who knocked him out of the ring and also out of boxing. Louis was still good enough to beat down a green Valdes and Pat Valentino in exhibitions so he must not have been as rusty against Charles as he is made out to have been. Valdes improved and later upset Charles. The fact that we have to bring up wins over an old Joe Louis, clubfighter Johnny Shkor and the accomplishments of fighters that Marciano beat as "proof" that he could handle bigger men to me indicates that he did not truly prove it. I'm not saying he couldn't, I'm saying he didn't.
1. "The very best only beat Louis" This is a fact. 2. "but more than only the very best would have beaten Louis" This is an opinion which can never be tested. Louis couldn't beat Marciano, but no one else did. This hardly proves he couldn't have beaten the Rex Layne, Bob Baker, Nino Valdes, and Bob Satterfield level fighters for years.
"Heinz Neuhaus & Karel Sys were top 10 ranked. 'Doc' Williams was a decent fighter who went onto beat the inconsistent Satterfield. James J. Parker was another decent fighter with size." As were comeback Louis' competition. Save the uspet for Charles, they were basically beating the same class of fighter. "Louis's performance against Charles strongly suggests that the old version of him could not beat Charles. It's even more speculation to claim that he would or that he was better than Charles at that point" Valdez/Charles is an engima that nobody seems to be sure of the exact circumstances. I would be hesitant to draw conclusions from it for the time being other than its a great win on paper for Nino. It was certainly an uncharacteristic shocking loss for Charles who did manage to reclaim his number one ranking by year's end, which leads me to question how convicing Valdez actually was. "I don't think there's any question that Jackson was the more accomplished contender of the two. " At the time of their respected fights I must disagree. Jackson had more distinguished names but Layne and Henry were in losing streaks. However, Jackson was labeled an embaressing bust after losing to Jimmy Slade. The NY Times wrote of the fight that "Jackson hasn't even proved to be a good club fighter yet." His bizzarre ragdoll act against Valdez didn't help his case. Brion got good press for beating Reynolds and Tami, but also dropped the ball against LaStarza in a stinker that hurt both men's reputations and had the public crying for Louis to return. However, Brion's efforts against Louis were at least well recieved. I'd say Jackson would only be considered more accomplished if you consider his wins against Baker and the like after the fact. "He did not have much strength or stamina. He was pushed around by almost everyone during his comeback " If by everyone you mean Marciano and Brion. "Like I said, other fighters that Marciano faced or would be favoured against beat top ranked fighters who were bigger than them, but Marciano didn't. Thus he is not deserving of being called a giant killer of any kind. " Beating Valdez wouldn't change that. Nobody would be big enough or good enough for Marciano's critics. At any rate, Valdez had his chances so its difficult to empathize. Moore deserved a shot before Charles, Cockell, Johnson, and Satterfield(he was overlooked or being overlooked for all of them at one point or another) but he took care of business and did what he needed to do. Nino could of forced Weil's hand but instead he chocked against Moore, Satterfield, and Baker. He should have been able to squeeze past at least one if he was as good as the Charles win would lead us to believe, but that was not to be.
valdes does look much beter against jackson but jackson looks like a rank novice. there is no two ways about it valdes could bang but there is no evidence valdes would have been fancied against charles in a rematch. jackson was an early tv favorite but was brought along much too fast. basicly a crowd favorite who had not paid his dues within the ranks, a bit like the fighters in the "contender tv show" .......only with less experience than peter manfredo. can i just say i think ageing great fighters get a bum deal unless they are bernard hopkins, ali or larry holmes. Rarely are they rated fairly since comparisons are made not on what they can still do but on what they used to be able to do. joe louis was beating rated fighters and earned his shot by taking on and beating his way back up to #1. He went the distance more than when he was a young dude, so what? had a new heavyweight beat the same guys under a difrent name he'd still be #1 like old joe was. old ali beat norton, evangalista and shavers on points for the title. old holmes beat carl wiliams, mercer and ferguson on points. old holyfeild beat fres okwando etc.. and why does marciano have to be a giant killer anyway? he beat the best. its not like he did not beat big, rated, ranked joe louis.
your point is weak, who were the big men you speak of "Valdez" who was beaten 2 times by Moore, once by 5"10 180lb Satterfeild and another by 6" 185lb Harold Johnson and Wallace & Satterfeild were Ko'd by Charles and Moore. Baker was Ko'd in 1 rd. by Satterfeild so WHO else was a good Big man who deserved a shot. My motto is fight the best that beat the best. As far as Marciano fighting his # 2 contender (after the nose injury) as opposed to 5 # 1's I think he was entitled having a tune up fight before fighting another # 1...It was Nino that BLEW 2 title opportunities by losing to smaller men that made them more deserving than him.
You can't count out Valdes's career best win over Charles because Charles is supposed to have been better. By his own words Valdes fought his best fight and was convincing enough to immediately be ranked number 1 in the world after the win. At times Charles would again be number 1, then Valdes. At the time of the Cockell fight, Valdes was number 1. Rocky could have fought him then and added a win over a 6'3, 210+ lb, 80" reach top ranked opponent to his list of accomplishments. Mauriello was well washed up and Reynolds, who also beat Brion, was never very good, even actor Robert Mitchum used him as a doormat in a streetfight (not to be taken seriously). Prior to his fight with Louis, all Brion had was the win over Mauriello in Mauriello's last ever fight, a win over Norkus, who also beat him and who was also KO'd by Hurricane Jackson, and a couple of decent losing efforts against Layne and LaStarza where Brion along with his opponents looked bad. Not a sensational up & coming prospect and never went onto be more than a fringe contender at best. Jackson was finished off by Valdes in just two rounds as shown in the video that was posted in this thread, and he went onto be a good contender and had already beaten some good men. Valdes was the only man to got rid of the usually durable Jackson in the early rounds. Also against the small but game Freddie Beshore whom Louis stopped on cuts. I don't think fighters need to force other fighters to fight them. Valdes was number 1 ranked, Marciano could have fought him. Weill admitted that he would hand-pick foes and avoid fighters until they got enough hype behind them so that the risk/reward ratio made sense. Marciano hardly fought anyone in any place at any time, not that I blame him, but that's how it was. Marciano could have very well fought Valdes and Baker at some point, as they were frequently ranked in the top 5. Rocky wasn't the most active champion. That would silence some critics, seeing him on film beating up on men who outweighed him by atleast 30 pounds. It's part of why Satterfield is as revered as he is, for knocking out opponents far bigger than him, not that he was one of the best of the era. Obviously there were no Lewis's or Klitschko brothers around, but there were a handful of quality fighters with size. Not talking about Johnny Shkor or Big Bill Wilson who were not good fighters. Again I must clarify that I never claimed to favour the likes of Valdes or Baker over Marciano. This is only a minor complaint. I see Jeffries, Jack Johnson and Tunney catching criticism for not competing against big heavyweights so I don't see why a similar case couldn't be made against Marciano. I know it has been made by others previously, usually by the Marciano haters that visit this site, but often times the discussion derails to senseless arguing from both sides. Here we have stated facts and corrections in a civilized manner. However I do not think that Marciano's ability to deal with bigger men with ability can be proven by the accomplishments of others or the outcomes of fights against non-ranked opponents. Boxing is all about proving your ability and for me Marciano did not prove that he was a "giant killer". Not saying that he could not beat bigger men who were world class but he did not prove it. We are going in circles now. Other smaller men than Marciano beating bigger ranked men is not definitive proof that Marciano could have beaten big opponents with ease. He did not prove it because he never faced one, outside of old Louis. I've said it again and again. You may say he was entitled to a "tune-up", but it shows that Marciano and his management were atleast wary of fighting Valdes and chose to take on an overweight light heavyweight instead.
To show you further why your argument is weak The power that be set up an elimination fight bewteen Valdes and Moore, with the winner to fight Marciano. The fight was set for 5-02-1955 between Moore and Valdez. Marciano could have sat back and waited but because his # 1 Moore and his # 1 Valdez were fighting for the elimination and Marciano agreed to fight the winner Marciano fought his #2 contender Don Cockell the next week 5-16-1955 I think there was a short window of time that Marciano could have fit Valdes or Moore in but being that Moore and Valdes were set to fight, to Marciano's credit he stayed active and fought his # 2 and that was the only time he did not fight his # 1 contender. You state he should have fought Valdes instead of Cockel but Valdez and Moore were not available so he fought his # 2
Moore and Valdez the #1 contenders were fighting 5-2-1955 for the title shot elimination so Marciano fought his number 2 contender Don Cockell the next week 5-16-1955 and that was the only time Marciano did not fight his #1 contender in a defense. I give Marciano CREDIT for fighting the next best available contender and staying busy while the other 2 were fighting off to fight him.