Why Didn't Larry Holmes Ever Unify The Title?

Yeah, but why would Holmes fight guys like Scott Frank, Lucien Rodriguez, Tex Cobb, etc, when guys like Page, Thomas, and Dokes were around? Or how about at the very least rematches with Witherspoon or Williams or even Mike Weaver? THere had to be something that made guys like Frank, Rodriguez, and Cobb more attractive as opponents? What was it? You can throw Marvis Frazier in their as well, as he wasn't viewed as being a big threat to Holmes.....If Page or Thomas or Dokes or those guys didn't distinguish themselves enough to fight Holmes, what did those other bozos that Holmes fought do to distinguish themselves??? You can't get around this.

 

SIMPLE! Less haggle at the table................ "Page, Dokes & Thomas" were bull**** artists' with big lawyers complicating matters.............. Holmes was fine with securing a kool mere "Million +" dollar TV purse / purses fighting the likes of "Cobb, Rodriguez, Frank & Frazier."

****! If it were me, I'd be retired for good after making them bucks like my man Holmes did..... Why knock it?

MR.BILLhatrasta:admin

 

You can forget any of the facts that you want or discount them. I know Larry and like him as a person but I have to use the same measuring stick with him as I do the other greats. You can not miss fighting 6 of the best fighters of your era and say you fought the best. Larry had 3 disputed wins that he never re matched. He never tried to unify.Bill, You can put your head in the ground or close your eyes or cover your ears but the facts are the facts.

 

I think "6" is a very debatable number.. There is a valid case for him not meeting Page and Thomas, but the others hardly maintained a reasonably long enough standing for him to be accused of ducking them...

Name them for me... The only fight that I might have given the other guy the nod in, was Carl The Truth, but the fact that he did not rematch him is moot.. He was already signed to face Spinks in his very next bout, and lost, so frankly the fact that he never fought him again holds no significance..

 

Carl Williams and Witherspoon for me I thought Holmes pulled out of the Norton fight with the last rd but there a lot of people that felt it was too close for comfort.

As far as Coetzee,Thomas,Dokes,Page,Tate,Weaver...I do not say it is written in stone that Larry was responsible for these fights not happening but collectively as a champion it is a Large list and some of these men were co-Champions.

 

1. The Norton rematch never happened, beacuse Ken was sparked by Shavers just months later, and Holmes fought the victor..

2. Witherspoon was close, but Tim did not win that fight. A close call does not always warrant a rematch.... We saw more of this in Louis's era when competition was scarce, and some of those guys never should have gotten a first shot to begin with.... Louis fought Abe Simon twice, but never once fought Lem Franklin who beat Abe on two occasions himself.. I have already addressed the Williams fight, and hold to my position that that a rematch was pointless.

3. Holmes signed to fight Coetzee, but Gerrie's team backed out.... Not Holmes' problem, and at any rate, Coetzee was regularly losing to many of his peers, some of whom Holmes had beaten..

4. John Tate was a top fighter for about 8 months, before losing two fights within a 3 month period to two fighters whom Holmes had either beaten, or would soon beat.... He then dropped off the face of the earth.. Tate's only big wins came in the late 70's, when Holmes was busy fighting Norton, Shavers, Weaver, etc.. and really has no standing in the 80's..

5. He already fought and beat Weaver... Good fight, but no sense in hounding him about a second meeting, especially when Bob Arum was doing everything he could to keep the WBA in his back pocket..

6. Dokes was manged by Carl King - Don't son, and the two of them were trying to groom him to be Holmes' successor... To place them in the ring together might mean having an eventual heir to thrown with a previous loss to a predecessor.... The King's were protecting Dokes, and the match was never going to happen... So what was Holmes supposed to do, show up at his front door with a baseball bat???

7. Thomas and Page are valid claims...

 

You got it right there - case closed
thumbsup:thumbsup

 

I'm surprised someone hasn't jumped down Holmes' throat for not fighting James " Quick " Tillis already..

 

Joe Louis KO'd Simon before Franklin KO'd Simon, Joe KO'd Simon in march, and Franklin stopped Simon in October. Lem Franklin got plastered by Bob Pastor Feb 1942 who Louis already KO'd. Franklin went on to get KO'd in like 8 of his next 10 fights. Joe did fight Simon again over a month after Franklin got KO'd by Pastor and stopped him quicker than in their 1st fight.


There is no doubt about Louis fighting the best and rematching hard fights. Simon was awkward for him and he left no doubt in the rematch.

Pastor dispatched of Lem Franklin and Turkey Thompson but could not beat Billy Conn who stopped him

Louis fought the Best of his times

 

Christ, Ol' Holmes missed fighting "Page, Dokes, Coetzee and Thomas." There, that's a solid 4 dudes...... Not all Holmes' fault though..... Page began losing in 1982 and Dokes was interested in the WBA more so than the WBC in them days as well.... Holmes WAS GONNA fight Coetzee in 1984, but the damn promotion fell apart for what ever political reasons you wanna guess about, and Pinklon Thomas was NOT very active after winning his WBC title from Timmy Spoon in August of 1984..... Hell, Thomas didn't fight Mike Weaver until June of '85 and than it took until March of '86 to blow it to Berbick.......

Lawrence Holmes had ONE long vacation stretch in his reign as champion of the WBC and IBF............ That was Nov. '83 to Nov. '84 when he fought and beat "Frazier and Smith." Come early 1985, Holmes takes on "Bey and Williams."

Holmes is way more the champion than any other pretender of the WBA ever dreamed of becoming...... WAY MORE!!!!


For the sake of bats flying outta hell, Larry Holmes did more as a champion from 1978 to 1985 than 98% of the ex-champs ever did, except of course, Joe Louis and Ali........

Holmes is top-5 material in my book...........

No goddamn way I'll rate "Marciano, Liston or Frazier" above Holmes......... Not gonna happen there, Bummy......... Cheers.........

MR.BILL

 

Franklin Ko'd Simon once in 1939, before Louis did it for the first time in 1941... Franklin would KO Simon again in 1941, before Louis fought him again in March of 1942... Franklin was stopped by Pastor just one month prior to Louis rematching Simon, HOWEVER if things had been in their proper order, Franklin should have already been signed to fight Louis, in place of Simon rather than facing Pastor..... Lem was on a 20 fight winning streak with wins over Simon, Bivins, Musto and a few others.... Simon had only won 2 of his last 6 fights... There is no plausible explanation why Simon got a rematch with Louis, and Franklin never even receiving one shot, especially given that Abe had already been stopped by Louis and was doing nothing to match the streak that Franklin had put together... . Using his loss to Pastor, is only giving Louis the benefit of hindsite, something that you yourself NEVER award to Holmes, despite the fact that he has beaten plenty of fighters that in turn beat the very men you accuse him of ducking..

 

Marciano probably derserves to be ranked above Holmes on the basis that he never lost a fight and always fought the number one contender... One possible argument that could be made in favor of Holmes however, is that he did spend a much larger portion of his career facing ranked contenders, holding a title and didn't lose until age 35, while Marciano was hanging em' up around 32... He also only defeated one old ex-champion in Ali, whereas the Rock made his living on such foes...

 

In a time machine, Holmes of 1980 batters Marciano of '52 at will to force a late round TKO...... Holmes too big, spry, cagey and skilled to lose to Marciano........ Holmes is the better; not more popular fighter / ex-champion..........

Rocco Marciano made a penchant outta beating aging old farts who were ONCE champions........ "Louis, Walcott, Charles & Moore." Some of them dudes were fighting back when T-Rex's ruled the world.... And, in truth, only a faded Joe Louis was that of BIG size for a 1950s aging heavyweight...... Joe Louis was 213 pounds for Marciano in '51....... The rest of the lot were a shade under 200 pounds.... That means a lot to me when comparing Marciano's comp to that of a proposed date with destiny against Larry Holmes in a time machine.......

MR.BILL:thumbsup

 

I'm basically done debating the issue... This has been an over kill topic for decades, and its like a broken record that keeps repeating itself..

100 years from now, there will still be some who favor classic fighters over their modern day successors, and mainly due to the fact that there will always be people who don't fully understand the dynamics of the game, and try to take legacies and transcend them into head to head abilities... For anyone with common sense, the problem with doing this is that just because a legacy was established in one period, does not mean that it can be duplicated by the same fighter in another.. There are too many variables... People will always ignore or fail to see size, strength, speed, training methods, and changes in the rules as key factors.. In the real world its called " raising the bar, " and it happens every day in every field.. its sort of like thinking that just because Sigmund Freud was the first pioneer in the field of psychology, that he'd be better fit to treat the behavioral issues of a child in 2010, then a modern day specialist that works in the office down the street from you, and soley because we've never heard of him......

 

Franklin won a decision not a KO over Simon in 1939, then he lost to Tony Musto and Eddie Simmons in the same year, then he had a good 1940 and 1941 he KO'd Simon. Joe Louis fought once a month for the first 6 months of 1941 and close to it in 1942. With that active a schedule. I think he was entitled to a easy money fight in between. Franklins good wins you mention came at the end of 1941 but he got KO'd by Bob Pastor early in 1942 and subsequently Ko'd again and lost for the most part after that time. For the most part Louis fought the best but its not like he was fighting once a year, closer to once a month.

Louis's record far exceeds Holmes for quality of opponents and activity. In tough rematches Louis ducked no one and remember he was the sole Champion so he did not benefit from political protection of the ABC titles and separate ratings. There were 3 sets of ratings in Holmes era and Holmes was not in the top 10 of the other alphabet groups.