How Joe Louis rated his opponents

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Unforgiven, Mar 31, 2010.


  1. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I agree with your initial point, (and I dont buy much of what Holmes says any time) but I just thought that was a strange example for you to use. I mean, it's not a surprising thing to hear that Shavers hits harder than Tyson.


    i dont think Louis had any agenda regarding Marciano. From what I remember he only ever said good things about him.
    The top 10 list is BEFORE he'd fought Marciano.

    And I think Louis just overlooked Marciano in the 2nd one because he was talking about fighters he fought in his prime or as champion.
    And in the same article he goes on to rate Marciano as "the best we've had lately" and he gives his opinion of current fighters too (Liston, Clay and Patterson).

    Here's the article :
    [url]http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?id=oqwyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=MOoFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1112,3989833&dq=joe+louis+rates+dempsey+greatest&hl=en[/url]
     
  2. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Another very early list of Louis's from December 1935

    1. Max Baer
    2. Primo Carnera
    3. Lee Ramage
    4. Patsy Perroni

    [url]http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?id=xU0bAAAAIBAJ&sjid=H0wEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6531,4790984&dq=joe+louis+rates+his+opponents&hl=en[/url]
     
  3. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I think I know :

    [url]http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=2247&cat=boxer[/url]
     
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Very cool, thanks.

    Note that Louis says that Rocky improved after he fought him. Joe is basically rating these guys on the nights he fought them. He can do no more than that.

    Interesting that he rates Conn above Walcott but sees Walcott as being smarter.
     
  5. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Yeah, I actually think Conn is a good pick.
    I think Conn impressed Louis in almost every area. Conn had it all, except power, and even then he compensated by stringing together enough punches to rattle Louis on occasion.

    I guess he was impressed with Baer for the sheer punishment he soaked up and his strength, and Louis considered that his best performance. 99% of heavyweights would have fallen sooner.
     
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Conn is a wonderful fighter.

    I think Baer took the worst beating i've ever seen a HW take on film in that fight. I remember counting the power punches he shipped to Joe, who was a horrific puncher of course, in one round of that fight and it was well into the teens. Punches a guy shouldn't be able to take.

    I think Joe has made a list of the guys he admired most overall when he fought them, allowing for matters of style and heart as well as the difficulty he had in boxing them.
     
  7. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Reading the article, (assuming that the writer didnt just post an old list of Joe's) it would seem that Louis did rate Marciano very highly, but thought that he improved After he fought Louis. Marciano fought Louis early in his career, and i think he did seem to get better as time went on. I think it possible that Louis' non rating of Marciano was more an acknowledgment that he did not actually fight prime Marciano. If this is where he is coming from I would guess that he has probably underestimated the fighter that he lost to, but i also think that he might actually have a pretty decent point, which i myself had nt really considered that much.
     
  8. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Here's the article from 1951 with his top 10 (which he later revised a bit, as you do)

    [url]http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?id=VZ40AAAAIBAJ&sjid=l3EFAAAAIBAJ&pg=770,4407432&dq=joe+louis+rates+opponents&hl=en[/url]
     
  9. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Yeah, some of the punches are real shockers.
    ****, the jabs on their own are kind of sick .....

    It's no wonder Baer never really pushed his case for a shot at Louis's title when he found himself up in the rankings again a few years later.
    Even his "ten-cent brain" could figure out that one.


    Yeah, and compared to some of the crap you come to expect from fighters it's pretty damn good.
    Often it's "Who was your best opponent ? what was your best fight ?", and the fighter gives some obscure unknown he fought in his 10th fight, which turns out to be an utterly unremarkable affair.
     
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    My favourite one ever was Hearns rating his toughest fight ever as Luigi Minchillo.
     
  11. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I've never seen it.
    But found it on youtube :

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s01RyX0oq8s&NR=1[/ame]
     
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    It's a good scrap to be fair.
     
  13. Lobotomy

    Lobotomy Guest

    Joe's high rating of Braddock from 1951 rings true to me. Jimmy reportedly had no fear of him before they squared off, and left the dressing room as if he was the boss. He said he fought Louis as well as he ever fought anybody, decked him early, and otherwise battled him on even terms through the first four rounds before the ravages of arthritis began to compromise his mobility and effectiveness. Joe was impressed enough to say, "Only Max Baer could hit harder than Jimmy Braddock." It was likely the very best version of Braddock that ever stepped foot in the ring who Louis had to wrest the title from.

    The day Joe died, ESPN repeatedly aired an interview Louis gave which appeared to have been given during the mid to late 1970s. In it, Joe mentioned Schmeling as being "a good counter puncher," but then said with great interest and emphasis that, "Billy Conn had it all!" (It bears pointing out that Billy was himself a lineal champion at 175, during a time when that title holder was considered a top contender for the heavyweight title as often as not.) The death of Louis is the earliest big story I vividly remember ESPN covering, although it was also the lead news item for all three major networks.

    By February 1951, Walcott had yet to become champion, something he would achieve in July of that year. To rate him higher in 1964 would also be a way for Louis to elevate himself. I'm inclined to take the 1951 ratings, when the competition was fresher in Joe's mind, as perhaps more sincere. As has already been inferred, I don't think he appreciated the elusive tactics of Walcott and Godoy. (Fight me like a MAN, dammit!:bbb)

    Max Baer's potential was through the roof, and he did give Joe some hell in those first two rounds during what Louis always identified as his peak performance.

    His consistently high marks for Carnera are intriguing. Louis did have some early trouble negotiating Primo's jab, and he couldn't keep the big man down, any more than a prime Sharkey and Baer could. This was at a time when other opponents were simply folding up at the mere thought of stepping in the ring with Joe. Carnera made an honest effort to compete, and Louis seems to have respected that.
     
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    "This is one guy you're not going to be able to scare, Chappie", was Blackburn's remark to Louis on the matter of Braddock, supposedly.
     
  15. bodhi

    bodhi Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I think Dick Tiger would second that. He said something similar after his third fight with Giardello, if I remember right.