Roberto Duran VS Shane Mosley at 135

:deal This. So much this.


Never before has a fighter been rated so highly for doing so little, as with Shane Mosley at lightweight.

Had he even beaten, or even fought, one very good lightweight, not even a great one, but a very good one, then maybe, maybe this thread wouldn't be so ludicrous.

But Mosley proved nothing at lightweight except that he had the ability to cut enough weight to be a beast in that division. He had power, he had speed, and he used them to punish mediocrities.

Would that have been enough against one of the most skilled and all-round effective fighting machines in all of history?

Negative.

 

No chance? That's silly.

Yep -it was warfare. And Duran himself admitted that Leonard was his toughest opponent to date.

Who said destructive power? You're using hyperbole and there is no need. Shane was and remains a boxer-puncher. That is the style that is most difficult for Duran -or is it not? I'd like to hear your answer to that.

You are far too casual in your reasoning and have not acknowledged Shane's obvious strengths. Name another lightweight challenge of Duran's that matches Shane's athleticism.

 

Had Duran died in a plane crash after Dejesus III, few would be so silly as to put him in the top 10 p4p, all-time. He proved just how great he was after he aged and fought larger men. Shane has proven much since his lightweight reign (which no one here ever highly touted). To dismiss him as just another Duran victim a la Lou Bizarro is goofy.

The reasoning is also suspect. To argue that Shane's domination of tin can challengers works against him in this hypothetical is faulty to say the least. I am anything but convinced that Duran would have handled Vernon Forrest in his early thirties or Miguel Cotto in his late thirties.

Shane's resume is impressive. His style is difficult though not as tight or as advanced as Duran's. Nevertheless, he poses problems.

 

You don't think you're overrating Mosley just a bit? If you're talking strictly of handspeed, you could make the argument they were on the same level. Shane has always had very developed fast-twitch muscle fibers, which allows for his explosive speed of hand. However, I've never seen any comparison to Ray physically in any other regard, including punching power. Shane's always been a bit overrated in that regard, a misconception brought upon by his explosive punching style, in my opinion. Certainly not harder than Leonard.

 

I disagree on pretty much all counts, so I'll try to answer specific points:

Since his lightweight reign, Shane has proven to be a limited boxer who has lost the majority of his big fights vs quality opponents.

He won Oscar 1 with a magnificent performance. He produced one of the truly great past-prime displays to beat Margarito 9 years later.

In between, he lost decisively over 2 fights with Vernon Forrest. He lost decisively over 2 fights with Winky Wright. In my opinion, he clearly lost the rematch with Oscar. He deservedly lost to Miguel Cotto.

Bear in mind, the guys we are discussing are not Tommy Hearns, Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, and Wilfred Benitez. They are not close to being of the same calibre.

Duran was older and further from his natural weight class when he fought those who bested him. Mosley does not have these mitigating factors to the same extent.

Who did so? Not me. I said what Mosley had would not be enough to contend with Duran. I stand by that. Duran would not mop the floor with Mosley, but he would beat him clearly and convincingly.

Not really, because I'm not saying it works against him. I'm saying he didn't prove himself at the weight. And he didn't. Therefore, there is no basis for assuming he could beat someone who proved himself to be one of the greatest ever there.

Shane was 30 when he lost to Forrest first time out.

Duran was 29 I think when he beat Ray Leonard.

If you don't feel certain that Duran could crush Vernon Forrest, you should change your username.

Shane was 36 when he lost to Cotto.

Duran beat Barkley at middleweight at 37.

Again, Duran would have completely dismantled a fighter as flawed as Cotto, I don't even give Cotto a fighting chance.

I disagree. I don't think it is. I think it is decent, but nothing special, not even in this era. Oscar 1 is a great win, Margarito a very very good one, and after that I don't see much of genuine value. Some of his contemporaries have amassed far deeper and stronger resumes IMO.

Again, I don't concur. I don't feel his style was particularly difficult at all. Shane has always been a strong, fast, aggressive fighter. Nothing difficult about him at all, if you can match him physically then he can be outboxed. And I think Duran could match him physically. Therefore, I see a decisive win for Duran.

I don't see why you have written that in response to my post. I don't see the relevance. If this is important, could you explain?


I hope you don't take my post as being rude, I don't intend it to be. I just find myself in direct opposition to what you have said. I don't see any justification for thinking Mosley would push Duran hard. He just didn't have the skillset or the experience/know-how in my opinion, not by a long way.

 

"At least as fast" allows for just as fast. I wouldn't quibble about it. I see more of a puncher in Leonard than most, but I do believe that Shane hits harder. I see heavier hands in him.

How does his explosive punching style bring about a misconception anywhere? Do you see Leonard knocking Mayorga out cold late in the 12th at any point of his career? Or Leonard having the firepower to stop Margarito? I say no way.

 

Are you ****in kidding:blood

 

It makes his attack appear more devastating, and in essence actually makes it moreso, but that has more to do with the accumulation effect of a number of explosive, unseen blows to the face than it has to do with any exceptional one-shot power-punching on Mosley's part. The way I see it anyway.

I don't see the issue, personally. Mayorga's chin gradually deteriorated as he aged with the beatings he took. He wasn't the same guy that stuck his chin out in mocking to Forrest and Trinidad, he was an aged and battered warrior, no longer world class in durability or overall ability, by the time Mosley broke him.

The Margarito win was a good one, but I saw it as more of the long overdue expose' of Marg than anything else. Taking that many consecutive and accumulative flush shots to the chin will break any but the very most durable and strong willed fighters, and Margarito was proven to be lesser than that.

I personally see no reason Leonard couldn't have done both, likely in even moe impressive fashion, had he chosen to take that route to victory. Particularly against Mayorga.

 

So hasn't Duran.

He did not need to fight either man. He did anyway and he gets respect for that. He was competitive against them at all times. Vernon called him "his equal" despite not 2 but 3 winds against Shane. Winky thanked him for doing what no one else was doing -giving him an opportunity. He did better the second time out both times and he earns my regard for fighting both men -who pose stylistic problems for his style- not once but twice a piece. I too had Oscar ahead in the rematch, but it was close. The match with Cotto was also just that -close.

They are not as far behind as you insinuate. Shane's resume is as impressive as it gets these days and this side of Pacquiao.

Shane is fighting Mayweather past the age where Duran had his last great win. If Shane defeats Floyd, it would be enormously impressive.

The PEDs bother me -alot. I think that the wins against Oscar should be declared NCs because of his own testimony. Barring that, Shane has had a ton more respect for boxing than Duran had in his mid to late thirties. Shane always trains hard and comes into the ring the way he should. Ready.

Perhaps. But the several posters aligned against my argument that Shane has a real chance (which is not to say he would necessarily even win)have not met the burden.

Benny Leonard's reign at LW far exceeds Duran's. Does Duran have no basis for assuming that he could beat Benny since his LW resume is inferior?

**My point is this. I am the first one to hold up caliber of opponents as a measure of greatness. Floyd is not impressing me yet because of that. However, let's say that FLoyd ducked everyone at JLW and LW and proceeded to step up to WW and whip Cotto, Margarito, Mosley, and Pacquiao. Would you then dismiss his LW greatness and argue that Ike Williams would whip him because Floyd faced tomato cans at 135? No you wouldn't. Do you see the argument here?

If you believe that a Duran aficionado must assume he easily whips a 6'0 tall natural 147 and boxer-puncher, then you should apologize to MAG and Pachilles. Because your respect for Duran has crossed into idolatry.

Duran was 35 when he lost to Sims. I don't see Shane having any problem whipping Sims.

Who hasn't he fought at WW...?! The guy will fight anyone. You have to respect that. He and Duran have that in common.

Name another LW who matches Shane's athleticism and physical attributes -like his height and reach.

See above **

No offense taken!

 

Well, that may have been an overstatement....





next time be more polite.

 

Fair enough. But when I watch the body mechanics, the body structure, and the ferocity of Shane's delivery, I see his having the edge over Ray in power.

 

Mosley probably did hit harder than Leonard at 147. He's on par with him for sure and I reckon he's equally as quick with his hands.

Lets not forget though, Duran v Mosley is at 135lbs with this thread.

 

Allhiphop.com has a regular boxing feature and they had this as their mythical match up a few months back:

Personally, I see Duran winning this in an all out war of a fight at 135. Shane has a better chance at 147 for me personally but I would still favour Duran slightly.

 

Mosley wasn't in many testing fights at lightweight. And his opponents were seldom star quality. I'm not too sure how he'd react to Duran's sustained body attacks round after round. Duran fought many times at lightweight against various styles. Mosley wasn't in his physical prime at this weight. As I said earlier, his speed and effectiveness went up a level after moving to welterweight.

 

Duran fought Hagler, Hearns, Leonard and Benitez though.

Mosley fought Forrest, Wright, Oscar and Cotto.

These two lists are incomparable.

No-one has said he doesn't. I think this comment is totally irrelevant to the topic under discussion. Mosley has fought some great fighters, taken fights he didn't need to take, etc. But none of this has anything to do with whether he could beat Duran at 135 or not.

I'm not so sure I'd go along with this statement. There were times in the 1st Wright fight where Mosley was all at sea, taking a shellacking and not offering much physical or mental resistance. I watched this fight again recently, and considering what a fiercely competitive and proud fighter Shane Mosley is, I was pretty startled by how demoralized he looked at points vs Winky. I can't remember which round it is, 8 maybe, where Shane looks like a sad pinata.

Again, I'm not sure of the relevance or significance of this. So guys he fought were magnanimous in victory - so what?

For me, the fact that Vernon beat Shane convincingly twice is not a point in Shane's favour, at all. To me, those defeats at a good weight for Shane showed his limitations as a boxer.

I don't take as harsh a view toward the Winky defeats, because I think the lmw Winky was a fantastic fighter (better than Vernon ever was), plus he clearly looked bigger and stronger at the weight than Shane.

Re Oscar - I view this fight in the same fashion as I do the Winky defeats - not a major black mark against Shane. Oscar proved to be effective at lightmiddle, and was a very good boxer. It was a close, competitive fight.

Re Cotto - I view this fight in the same fashion as I do the Forrest losses - a definite black mark against Shane. Look at how Margarito and Pacquiao crushed Cotto. Cotto has always been a deeply flawed fighter whose excitement value hid his fragility for too long.

Seriously?

Cotto and Forrest aren't light years behind Leonard and Hagler? :think

What else can I say other than I disagree completely? I think there are a good few guys from this era who have deeper and/or stronger resumes than Shane. As I said, he has two outstanding wins and not much else in my eyes.

Yes, "if". But I don't think he will. He will be defeated emphatically IMO. I dearly hope I'm wrong on that mind you.

Not really, if he knowingly cheated. But I suppose only he can know if he did, so we should move on.

This much is true. Still, Shane's win over Margarito is the signature achievement of his 30s, and it doesn't match up to Duran's win over Barkley.

I don't understand?

To reiterate - Mosley showed nothing in his lightweight reign that suggests to me he could beat one of the elite lightweights of history, Duran. Shane was over-reliant on the physical side, he did not possess the skills, versatility, experience or mental nous to cope with Duran at his majestic best.

Leonard's lightweight reign is the greatest title reign of all-time in my opinion. Duran's lightweight reign is inferior, but unquestionably also great.

Leonard

Duran













Mosley


Duran proved to be a great lightweight. Shane didn't.

But Shane didn't step up in class and wipe out all the best fighters like your analogy. If he had, then maybe I would think differently. But he didn't. He stepped up in weight, beat Oscar when Oscar tried to brawl with him, and was then soundly outboxed by someone who could match him physically and exceed him in skill. What that suggests to me is that someone who could match Shane physically and exceed him in skill is onto a winner. Duran is that someone.

:huh Seriously?

To think that the Roberto Duran who took the zero of prime Sugar Ray Leonard could beat Vernon Forrest at welterweight, a man twice beaten at welterweight by Ricardo Mayorga, is idolatry????

This is becoming silly. I starting to think someone has hacked Stonehands's account.

And I don't think Duran would have had any problems dismantling Miguel Cotto. Stalemate. Next.

I don't know why you think I don't respect Shane Mosley. What have I said that has given you that impression? I respect him very much. I just think Duran would defeat him handsomely if they fought. Thinking one of the best fighters ever would beat him is not disrespecting him.

Oscar De La Hoya.

Cool. :good