if ingo KO'd floyd in the return would the swede be king kong insted of liston?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by choklab, Apr 10, 2010.


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  1. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    ingo beat the two best heavyweights of 1959 by KO. did pattersons famous return win tarnish ingo? does the patterson wins flatter sonny?
     
    choklab, Apr 10, 2010
    choklab, Apr 10, 2010
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  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    It would very obviously depend upon what happened in Liston-Johansson.
     
    McGrain, Apr 10, 2010
    McGrain, Apr 10, 2010
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  3. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    up until his loss to patterson ingo did as much to warent "king kong" status as liston. both machen and patterson had not been knocked out before unlike any of listons pre title scalps so there is the argument
    ingo had the greater wins. throw in that floyd for whatever reson simply could not perform against liston there is also the point that liston had considerably less floyd to beat.



    perhaps I am being hard since I acept sonny was for a moment the best heavyweight in the world. maybe its because I am reminded of how the liston legend grew during the tyson era?
     
    choklab, Apr 10, 2010
    choklab, Apr 10, 2010
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  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I have multiple Ring magazines from the era, and every single one of them seems to indicate that Sonny was seen as champion in waiting and the coming man. Regardless of this "growth" you see around Sonny, the reputation he enjoyed in his own time was greater than the one Ingo enjoyed.
     
    McGrain, Apr 10, 2010
    McGrain, Apr 10, 2010
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  5. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Actually Wayne Bethea who was top 10 rated, had never been stopped before, and was never stopped afterwards. Liston did the trick in 58 seconds.

    Although Ingo Kayoed Machen, Patterson and Cooper...Listons previous wins over Machen, Folley, Williams, Valdes, Harris, Bethea, Dejohn, trumped anything ingo had to offer.


    Liston would have murdered Ingo had they gotten in the ring. It would have ended early.
     
    SuzieQ49, Apr 10, 2010
    SuzieQ49, Apr 10, 2010
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  6. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    i have the magazines too. johanasson made as big a splash when he won the title but it was short lived. the whole rematch clause iritated fans and took too long. ingo and floyd fought once a year 3 times over! sure listons shot was well overdue but his rep went through the roof by beating floyd with ease twice. sonnys rep benefited from the unfair wait.
    years later contrasts were made when tyson came along and a myth grew. sonny did what a good champ should but he simply had floyds number. for whatever reson floyd could not perform against sonny. I think ingo beat a beter floyd. he did a beter job on machen. I accept ingo did not make a good champion since he apeared to lose desire when he acheived his goal. but it works both ways was liston as good against ali? theres not much between liston and ingo on merit.
     
    choklab, Apr 10, 2010
    choklab, Apr 10, 2010
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  7. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    Cosign!

    I can probably only count with the fingers I have on one hand, how many fighters I think could have beaten Liston.

    Patterson was a very great boxer, but thank god Liston was fighting in the same era, so we can see how big of a discrepancy there is between Liston and the average "heavyweight great".
     
    reznick, Apr 10, 2010
    reznick, Apr 10, 2010
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  8. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Do you mind providing some concrete evidence to back your outlandish claim?

    If you ever read Floyd's book, you would read he said he was not at 100% for the first johansson fight. Patterson, however, never said anything of that sort for the liston fights. Stop making excuses because Johansson got his ass handed to him TWICE by patterson, yet patterson couldn't make it out of the first round against liston in two oppertunities. Your fighting a losing battle. Johansson couldn't shine Liston's shoes. Ingemar certainly wouldn't have dared get in the ring with sonny. He feared for his life. Johansson talked a big game about liston, but that is all it was..talk. Liston challenged to fight both Johansson and Patterson on the SAME NIGHT.
     
    SuzieQ49, Apr 10, 2010
    SuzieQ49, Apr 10, 2010
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  9. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    WHAT?!

    I know Floyd was not himself for the first Ingo fight.

    But he was in much much much worse mental condition for the first Liston fight. Patterson enetered that ring, so he could get knocked out as fast as possible. He wanted it to happen.

    Patterson was goin through unbelievably tough responsibility issues. The entire country was rooting for him. The president said "You better win". They made Floyd their hope to stop the "Bigger Thomas", and he could not handle the pressure. Especially knowing that he did not stand a chance with Sonny.

    Saying Floyd was ready for the first Ingo fight is crazy.

    Saying Floyd was ready for the first Liston fight is just preposterous.
     
    reznick, Apr 10, 2010
    reznick, Apr 10, 2010
    #9
  10. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Re-read what I wrote. Never did I say Floyd was "ready"...all I said was in his personal opinion he never made any excuses for the first liston fight...while he did make exuses for the first johansson fight. Bottom line is that their is no evidence to suggest the patterson whom johansson faced was better than the patterson whom liston faced.


    Liston twice knocked out a prime 26-27 year old floyd patterson. Deal with it.
     
    SuzieQ49, Apr 10, 2010
    SuzieQ49, Apr 10, 2010
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  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I agree with you, actually. But in the second fight, which Patterson did not have to take, Patterson took the same spartan attitude to training as he did for the second Johansson fight. When asked about the exact point you raise he answered, "those things are gone for me now". Result? Liston KO'd Patterson 4 seconds later.
     
    McGrain, Apr 10, 2010
    McGrain, Apr 10, 2010
    #11
  12. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Also I find it ironic how Ingo knocked Floyd down 9 times and was never able to keep him down for the 10 count. Liston needed only one knockdown in the first fight to put him down for the 10 count.
     
    SuzieQ49, Apr 10, 2010
    SuzieQ49, Apr 10, 2010
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  13. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    :good
     
    SuzieQ49, Apr 10, 2010
    SuzieQ49, Apr 10, 2010
    #13
  14. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    ooooo okay. I guess I just misread what you were saying.

    Trust me I have no trouble coping with the fact that Patterson got KOd twice. Those are two historical amazing fights in history.
     
    reznick, Apr 10, 2010
    reznick, Apr 10, 2010
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  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    :lol:

    Yeah, sure, Sonny's reputation benifited from his being champion less long.
     
    McGrain, Apr 10, 2010
    McGrain, Apr 10, 2010
    #15
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