Roberto Duran VS Shane Mosley at 135

But if you're serious then:bbb

 

Duran is just perfect for beating Mosley.

Mosley had troubles with what Mayorga brought to the table.

Duran is like a refined, non-******ed version of Mayorga with massive strengths everywhere Mayorga has a weakness.

 

Interesting way of putting it.

 

Intresting match up. Shane Mosley is quicker than Roberto Duran. I think however the boxers who beat a prime Duran (Ray Leonard who did beat him. Benny Leonard, Pernell whitaker and Floyd Mayweather) are boxers who I think did in Ray Leonard's case or in my opinoin would out think him in the ring. I don't think Mosley who has a high ring IQ fits in to this catagory.
Mosley is taller and longer but he dose not realy jab and will give some of those advantages up. I have the same criticism of Mosley as I do of Ray Robinson. He is often/usualy/almost always the most talented boxer in the ring. This dose not mean that he is going to win. I do think that Duran is slightly more talanted than Mosley.
I see this fight playing out a lot like Duran/Leonard 1. I think it will be great to watch for boxing fans in genral. In the end however I see Duran wining 8-4 or 9-6.

 

You think Mayweather beats Duran?

Mosley also had a very adequate jab at 135.

But seriously, you think Mayweather beats Duran? :?

 

You like the fights on Classic. Me too. I haven't gone rounds with itrymariti or Popkins yet. They're good!

 

You're distorting what I said. I never claimed a consensus claimed that. I pointed out two -you and one other.

And you can add me to the majority who favors Duran narrowly. And I still wouldn't bet anything on that.

However, Duran did hold the physicality cards for almost all of his LW fights. Sure Hector Thomas may have been faster and a few guys had faster hands but who had arguably both...?

And that is a difference that you are not recognizing.

Shane is 5'9 with a decent reach advantage. He's faster. He hits arguably harder than any Duran LW conquest.

That isn't. To say that Shane gets "thrashed" as you did, is controversial.

In all likelihood, he is.

...As I've argued a million times. Boxing is a skill sport before it is an athletic sport. But there are many false positives where the man with faster hands who has equalizers in his fists throws it off. Significantly. Duran respects power. He has trouble with hand speed like anyone else. Shane has both.

That was a tangent, as I've pointed out.

Greatness again. Head to head is different. Cotto isn't Mosley. Just because Duran would eat up Cotto doesn't mean he would do the same to Duran.

 

Well, you were claiming that the whole thread was under-rating Mosley, which clearly isn't the case if the vast majority have been favouring Duran only narrowly.

So what? Kessler was the best fighter Ward had ever faced BY FAR, and he whooped him. Ray Leonard was bigger, longer, faster than Mosley, and Duran dealt with him fine.

I don't think he would get "thrashed", quite. I just think that when two fighters have the same style but one is vastly more educated with it than the other, that's a recipe for a thrashing.

1. Duran could well be the fastest and strongest Lightweight Shane has ever faced.

2. The difference in speed and power is very slight either way. You're making too much of it.

3. Duran dealt with power when he fought Iran Barkley; he dealt with speed when he beat Ray Leonard. There are few fighters who have proven themselves against those attributes to the extent Duran has. And you think it would throw him off?

You're missing my point. You can't compare Mosley's loss to Cotto to Duran's loss to, say, Benitez, because Cotto is not half the fighter Benitez was.

 

I plainly said "some" and proceeded to offer direct quotes of those who I believe overstated the case.

Duran dealt with him "fine"? It was Duran's toughest fight to date and he had to be at his very best to take the decision over a brutal 15 rounds. When asked if Leonard was his toughest opponent, do your remember his answer in the post fight press conference? "....si...."

That bodes better for my stated position than yours.

"Both fighters like guys coming to them" -that's simplistic. They don't have the same style in any but the most basic sense.

He was. And that is why I'd edge Duran here.

Also, if I'm reading that you are conceding my point about Shane's being the fastest and the strongest LW for Duran, I'd encourage you to temper your position at least a little.

On the contrary, you are too dismissive of it.

It is in all likelihood an established fact that Shane's physical and athletic attributes is the most formidable of any fighter Duran faced in his natural division. Shane brings similar things that Leonard did, who was Duran's toughest opponent to handle up to 1981.

Your using a retrospective to prove a point. LW Duran had not yet faced the kind of power and speed that Shane had yet. It would be new, I'd expect him to struggle. Who doesn't struggle with power delivered with serious speed? Jones built his whole career on power and speed and limited technical skill. And he's a god on this forum (a false one in my book, though great).

I don't disagree but now we're just confusing each other on that comparison.

A point of agreement --Duran beats Floyd. Handily. Why? Because Floyd's power is not enough for Duran to respect.... AHEM.

 

I don't get to read much now and itrymariti has slipped in under my wing. He has indeed got it going.

 

He's very good with not only argument but with his foundation. I'd tell him but we're still in battle and he may think I'm soft. So --shhhhhhhhhh. Haha.

 

I'm grateful for the compliments.

Yeah, but speed wasn't the issue. Duran took away Leonard's speed with head movement, and went inside where it was less important. Leonard made it a tough fight because he was a brilliant boxer with brilliant skills. On a side note, I actually thought Duran beat Leonard quite thoroughly, by 5 rounds or so.

(It was also a dismissive, almost begrudging "si" - typical Duran!)

Well, they're both brawlers. It's not like Mosley's going to be boxing and moving. The way I see it, that gives no-one any particular advantage. What stylistic edge do you think Mosley has?

I'm not changing my position because I don't think a bit more speed and power than usual would have been made all that much difference. Leonard was probably the strongest and fastest opponent Duran had ever faced; it didn't stop him beating him easier than he beat Edwin Viruet.

Leonard's boxing ability gave Duran much more trouble than his speed and size (which is actually greater than Mosley).

What, do you think Duran grew a new chin before he moved up in weight? (And Barkley at 160 hits like a truck compared to Mosley.) The power wouldn't stop him.

Look, if fighters got confused every time they faced something slightly new we'd live in a very random world. Duran has proven that he has the skillset and the physicality to deal with everything Mosley has. It might take him a couple of rounds to adjust - like it would Mosley - but it's not going to be a huge factor when one guy is just so much better.

Well, Jones also possessed superb range control, timing, footwork and was a great ring general. You need more than speed. Andre Berto is one of the fastest fighters around, but I could name you a lot of much slower Welterweights that would beat him with skills.

... and because Duran is decidedly superior in pretty much every aspect of the sport of boxing - defensive and offensive.

 

I had Duran up by about the same, but it was hard-fought all the same. Duran won that fight, but he was not dominant in it. Leonard was right there forcing him to be maximum Duran, forcing him to push his limits.

Duran at anything less than what he was on that night would not have beaten Leonard. And he would never have beaten Leonard again. End of story.

Speed is always an issue. Skill is always an issue. From what I know about Duran (and it's lots), he respected power. I've argued that it was power, combined with speed, that was a major factor behind those two losses to Leonard. Duran was taking chances in there. And if he was as impervious to power shots as he claimed, he would have taken chances -poor conditioning be damned. But he didn't, did he.

The hell it was. Typical Duran would spit on the question. As it was, he thought for a moment and then yes, begrudgingly mumbled an affirmative. That was not typical Duran. Even as late as '83 he was waving off Hagler after 15 rounds ("you got nah-theeeng, Marbin, you got nah-theeng!").

I don't necessarily consider Duran a 'brawler.' He alternated between being a puncher early on, to more of a wear-his-man down pressure fighter, to boxer-puncher, to counter-puncher. Sure, he brawled at times, but he was much more. And he had foils and problems like anyone else.

Shane's edges? I see Mosley as the faster man. His hands could blaze at times and he would indeed be fast enough to disrupt Duran's rushes. If DeJesus could drop Duran twice, then I see zero reason why Shane couldn't as well. And LW Duran did have a bit of an issue with left hooks. Shane had a serious left hook that he could triple up to the body and head. He moves well -laterally and is not shy about moving backwards. He's also got an educated jab that varied in speed and power. That is disruptive. When he shoots it while circling on the perimeter as Duran comes in, it could pose problems.

These stylistic assets combine well with his athleticism -even though he was untested at LW. Shane has always been a serious competitor who would not allow any man's experience/mystique to get in the way. He is a gifted fighter who would be competitive -I say highly competitive with Duran, even if Duran would prove to be too much of a cerebral technician for him.

Viruet? Duran took him lightly. When he fought Leonard I, Duran had trained so hard he was barely human. Leonidas saluted him from the grave.

Question:

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You are using "better" too much now.

Styles make fights. Shane has a problematic array of assets at LW. He is taller, has a longer reach, faster, has a comparable chin and comparable power. He is no slouch technically either and he moves well. -That's more total assets than any LW Duran faced.

Those are serious factors that mean Duran could expect problems, even if he is and must be the favorite...

Mosley is a better technician than Roy or Andre.

See, this argument works in a hypothetical between Duran and Chavez. Hell, I've used it myself 129 times. But you are de-valueing the disruptiveness of speed and power. Speed kills and power is an eraser. These adages are not meaningless.

...Otherwise, Ali would never have beaten Liston.

 

The overall difference in speed and power between the two is minimal imo.Power especially is a wash.

Duran has much better defensive reflexes and better legs/footspeed, allowing him to close the gap the quicker of the two, while slipping and countering very quickly.

Mosley has better straight up single shot and extended combo speed, but not by a huge gap, especially for single shots, which Duran could be cat-quick with.

Add in those advantages in reflexes and i say Mosley's HBO all-time great tm. speed is something we might know he has in his locker, but never really comes into play the way it did with overmatched C level fighters or smaller physically outmatched men like Leija.


Mosley also has a bit of Camacho in him, as shown in the first Forrest fight, where when someone really got to him and was able to hurt him for the first time, he responded by clamming up offensively.

That was something that stuck for years and happened almost overnight.He was far more wary of letting his hands go afterward in the majority of his fights.

Heart and determination isn't a constant(as duran could tell us as well)so maybe against Duran he would knuckle down and keep firing back with all he has for the duration.Howver ifd i'm to bet on who would start to back down and wilt first, or try and change things up i'd surely say it would be Mosley.

Wouldn't surprise me if it played out something like the Dejesus 2 fight regarding flow, with a great competitive first 3rd or half, then Duran taking over and a look of inevitablity settling in.