if ingo KO'd floyd in the return would the swede be king kong insted of liston?

patterson had not tasted knockout defeat as a pro when he fought ingo where as he had by the time he fought liston. how much more concrete do you want? thats a cement mixer on its own! a fighter loses something with each concusion. its just a fact. was coony the same after holmes knocked him out? was tyson ever the same after douglas knoked him out? was roy jones the same?
its simply not outlandish just a point of view based on fact. im not saying ingo was beter than liston i just want to know if he did less than liston to be king kong.

 

haha you have a point, i was being mischeivious but at the same time i think floyd was worse against liston than anyone else. obviously liston himself must be aplauded for being instrimental in bringing the worst out of floyd, its not sonnys fault. Id go so far as to say If you could convince floyd that albert westphal was liston he would probely lose to him. he just had a hex over floyd.

 

how ever hard he prepared floyd was sapped of his usual pep. Just watching his body language the strain had got to him before the first punch landed. an intimidated fighter cannot perform and floyd did not perform however much he wanted to the fire didnt flame. Liston was on to him, he could smell it just like ali copuld smell it on liston in their rematch.

 

:good

 

Only until the real King Kong, Liston fought him...the difference between Ingo and Patterson may have been a round or two as Ingo would have backpedaled more and survived to round 3..maybe even rattling Liston once with the "bingo" of his. Liston would be heavyweight king by round 3.

 

There was a bit of an aura growing up around Johansen after he beat Patterson, but subsequent events ment that it was forgotten.

Auras are only remembered when they are fulfilled.

 

As crazy as it may sound, I think it's entirely possible that, had they fought, Liston might have knocked out Johansson even faster than he did Patterson.

 

Thats just what i am saying. as you say ingo did not fulfill this aura. Did liston realy do that much more though?

If Liston fulfilled his aura, and i dont doubt he was once the best heavyweight in the world, I dont think sonny entirely fulfilled his aura in his own lifetime.

I am coming to beieve his aura as it is conceived today was fulfilled by half truths much later. some people believe as good as liston was in real life he was actualy EVEN beter than he was alowed to be based mysteries that cant be proved. if he did throw the ali fights does it prove he could have won them? If he was much older than he was belived to be does it prove he was even beter when he was younger? these mysteries answer and excuse all of listons shortcomings. for every negative there is a myth that excuses it. burt sugar wrote that folley was blinded by stuff on listons gloves perhaps that is another mystery i should not accept?

There are however plenty of facts that prove Liston was a great fighter without the myths. no question he was great to watch i cant argue with that. Film and facts prove at his best he was a hard man to beat.

 

Nope. It was Liston's destiny being King Kong from the start.

 

he was good enough to be a champion.

 

Johanssen won an Olympic Silver medal. But it was actually withheld from him, because he ran away from his gold medal winning opponent. This was a high profile fight, and it would have had put (probably unfairly) a massive dent in Ingo's aura of invincibility! Also, fighting outside the US, would not have helped him build up the Aura. Therefore, Machen and Patterson results had only just negated the negative Aura, when Patterson reversed the result.

Incidentally, there is a lot of focus on Patterson's condition against Ingemar, but not much on the reverse. Ingemar was poorly trained from the start and never was seen to be a great fighter, yet he still won the world title.

On winning the title, it seems that Ingo lived the good life for 12 months. I think he got married in this time, and like most of the great champions before him, his focus was out of the ring, more than in the ring. He took his fight wigh Floyd, but couldnt have possibly been up for the fight, the same way he was for the first, as he no longer trained like a champion.

The third fight, his condition was even worse. Yet it is interesting to note, that he did knock Floyd down a couple of times, before his poor condition took over and he was eventually stopped.

The ohter thing to consider is that stylistically, Floyd was probably as bad a fighter for Ingo as you can get, with his blinding speed. Yet, despite this, he did win the title at his first attempt.

All in all, i think that Ingemar was probably better than people give him credit nowadays, and definitely, if trained right, he would have been better than most think today. I dont think he beats Liston, but he is not without a realistic chance. It would be interesting to see how his aura would have been, if he had retired after Paterson I (realistically he stopped training so he may have). IN hindsight, this would ahve set up a possible Liston/Johannson (coming out of retirement) superfight. Given the liston hate, i see Johannson as being set up by the media as the unstoppable monster and likely favourite.