I think Max Schmeling's knockout loss to max baer hurt his legacy. Had he defeated Baer, he would have put himself and louis far above the other contemporaries. Because of that knockout loss, Schmeling can still be lumped in with sharkey and baer.
Schmeling was a marvelous fighter with a great, effective right hand, but in terms of power it pales next to Baer..who I think would have used it to great effect against Walker and that's a scary thought. You can't always assume that a sloppy, clowning nut case Baer would always show up for these hypothetical fights. He had serious ammunition with that right and was capable of badly hurting a smallish type guy like Walker.
I disagree. He was the second best hw of the 30s, only behind Louis, and clearly above the rest. Sharkey and Baer are not too far behind but still behind him. btw. the fight was close and about even when Schmeling was stopped. Baer himself said that Schmeling had him out oin his feet but didn´t realise it. I don´t think that loss is as bad as you make it sound.
True but Baer had a bad night for every good one he had, if not more. I like Baer, hell, I´m a big fan of the 30s, not just hws. :good
Still, the '38 blow-out loss to Louis is what really hurts Schmeling's legacy....... M.S. was only age 32 and in fine shape for the rematch, but, Louis was too primed and was not to be denied in '38....... Schmeling got dusted and, in my book, its hard to forget that loss......... :hat:yikes MR.BILL
Schmeling was already considered past it in their first match. And you seem to forget all the circumstances in the second fight. Schmeling could neither train nor sleep properly thanks the the American fans, on his way to the ring he the "fans" threw about everything they had with them on him and his wife had to watch the fight with none less than the propaganda-minister Goebbels himself to assure Schmeling would give his best. All of America hated him as a nazi when he wasn´t one and at home it wasn´t expected he would win, everybody knew he would. Everybody would have crumbled on that pressure. Add to that that he hurt his back at the beginning of the fight and that it was against the probably greatest hw of all time and you just can´t think this loss hurting his legacy like you seem to do. Go and look at the circumstances of fights not just the results. :deal
Bodhi, That's a cop out and a load of bull****....... Max was a seasoned vet and solid pro. He had already beat Louis by KO in '36 and clearly had the psychological advantage going into the rematch. Going into the '38 rematch, nobody figured Louis would ICE Max like he did.... This crap that Max was not in good shape is a load of bollocks... Max went into the fight in good shape, but exited in very bad shape..... And, the fact that M.S. fought until the late 1940s, determines to me that his '38 loss to Louis DOES hinder his legacy to a large degree........ To this very day, older folks still recall the '38 blow-out on many "Highlight" reels......... WORD! bbb MR.BILL:hat
Where did I say Schmeling was not in top shape? Show me, I never said though. Schmeling fought after WW2 purely because he had nothing to live on. He was absolutly shot then. He was even accused of fixing those fights and it went to the court but since he knew about everybody on the BDB there was no sentence. His fights after WW2 shouldn´t count for anything. Using this as an evidence is a joke. Sorry but ignoring the pressure and threatening of his wife - who btw. was czechen and Hitler wanted to get rid of her before ´38 - is just pure ignorance on your part. Schmeling having an psychological advantage in that fight? Are you joking? No, fighter in history had ever as much pressure on him as Schmeling had in that fight - the only one coming near that is Jack Johnson in his fight against Jeffries and he get´s huge probs for me for standing up to it. The advantage of already having beaten Louis doesn´t mean anything when you look at that. Schmeling was a seasoned vet, right but he also was already past it in ´36. That´s in the books. Look it up.
I believe that the "bad night" Baer would surface in a fight with a known defensive/boxing wizard type like Loughran or a hard luck type guy that would be percieved to have no chance, like Braddock and of course, a killer like Joe Louis in the opposite corner. A guy like Walker, no matter how good he was considered, was so small that Baer would have at first would have been a bit playful, perhaps in the theory that the Mick could do no harm to him...until Walker displayed his bulldog tenacity and showed he had the temerity to actually fight Baer. At some point or another, Max would have had to, for his own credibility's sake, and also under great duress from his own corner, show who was boss and would have fired a bomb or two at Walker..maybe hurting him badly, or maybe just enough to persuade the ref to stop it..I'm sure Max wouldn't have torn into him like he did Schmeling or anything, because he would have killed Walker, so the most probable ending would have been a quick flash of power and a merciful referee..perhaps wanting to avoid a Frankie Campbell type of ending.
You can list more names for Sharkey, but that one fellow at the top of Schmeling's list tips the scales, I think.
Bod, Aside from the political bull**** surrounding WW2 and the rematch of '38, (The War had not yet truly begun until '39) I seriously doubt that Hitler was gonna "Off" Schmeling's hot-ass wife who was a popular actress at the time and had a nice size German fan following....... Hitler kept Schmeling's wife company back in Germany merely to ensure Max's return........ Had Max's wife also made the trip to New York in '38, neither would've gone back to Germany right away.... Hitler knew that......... As for "FIXED" fights later on, well, I need proof there........ I know Max came back and kicked some ass in circa--'39 and won the European heavy title in front of a huge fan following...... Then the war ****ed everything up until roughly 1946 or so....... **** it, my initial point was, the '38 KO loss to Louis hinders Max's legacy....... Why? Cuz the fight was high-profiled in the media / world in 1938....... Face the facts, mate... MR.BILL
I've allways thought Sharkey and Schmeling as equal on resumee and H2H. I prefer Sharkey as a boxer, I think he was a super technican. His performances against Max(1) Loughran, Carnera(1) Wills, Dempsey and Godfrey give him six performances that stand up against most great Hw's ever. Also his inconsistancy is overated, he was a top 10 guy for ten years? Schmeling too had great consistancy but Hamas, Uzcuden, Sharkey (1), Daniels were inconsistant performances. You can argur Baer, Sharkey or Schmeling as the best of the group but overall it's a toss up.
I don´t think Walker would fight him as he fought Sharkey or Schmeling. He would be aware of Baers power and would box much more. He would bring the heat but only in spurts when the possibility is there. Walker was an intelligent fighter and he would know what he could do with Max and what not I think. However, I can see happen what you describe.
Schmeling never thought about leaving Germany. Never, there´s nothing what supports this. Hitler and Goebbels wanted Schmeling to get rid of his wife even before ´38. There is evidence for that. Prove? Well, he was before a court of the BDB (German boxing association) for it but the heads of the trial were all old friends of him. It´in at least one bio I have on him over here "Schmeling 1905-2005 - the career of a century German", I don´t know if this one exists in English though. Good written and not a fanboy book but also critical where critic is due like here with the fixed fights. And my point is it does not at all, when you considere the circumstances of the fight. You still haven´t proven me wrong.
who else? Sully Montgomery wasn't rated at the time when sharkey beat him, though he would go on to crack the top 10 later on.