Liston's resume and ranking

He is in my top 10.

 

:good

 

I actually think Floyd Patterson tried to change tactics in the second Liston fight, whatever he says.
I can see he's attempting to use the ring and backing up until 0:43 where he ducks and gets clobbered by a Liston right ............ then Patterson tries to clinch, but that only makes things worse.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcq0ns0Eo8I&feature=related[/ame]

I think even Patterson's trainers and Patterson himself wouldn't have objected too strongly to him being labelled a "blown-up middleweight". He was a small guy, and they had to make sure he ate enough to keep his weight up. He may have weighed 185 - 195 but he retained the frame to go down, at least to light-heavy, IMO. He wasn't as big-framed - or built up with the same solidness of - a Holyfield, nor as big as M.Spinks, or even as solid and built as a Gene Tunney, IMO.
In fact, look at him against Jimmy Ellis (another guy accused of being a "blown-up middle) and Patterson looks to have the naturally smaller frame, ie. bone-structured.
And he looked a little soft at 196 against Ali :

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But having said that, Liston shouldn't be discredit because Patterson was "small". Look at all the men Patterson fought who didn't do anything like that to him. George Chuvalo didn't manhandle Patterson despite the fact that Floyd was willing to get in the trenches at times to win the round, and Chuvalo was 210 pounds of raw and incredible strength. Muhammad Ali was big, Bonavena was strong, Johansson was a fierce puncher (and Floyd came back to beat him 2 out of 3), Moore was a puncher. Floyd clearly wasn't easy to bully.

But like I said before, where you rate Liston will depend a lot on where you rate Patterson.

 

i think pareson is/was underated by many...big heart, fast hands, decent power...he fought, as many have said, a lot of good qulaity guys and his most memorable defeats come against the younger, stronger ali and in liston a fighter who was just horrible for him, and an underestimated johansen who lets not forget, had huge power...and floyd starched in the rematch.....not much shame in that.....liston was all kinds of wrong for all kinds of heavyweights in history, big, strong (in perspective...), great chin, hits hard and methodically walks down and takes out a lot of guys...

 

I disagree.

Here is an old article i made on liston. I am going to leave out listons skill in this thread and concentrate on his resume.

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Some fighters are coddled on there way up. Not Liston. He was thrown to the wolves very early and came out on top. Being thrown to the wolves early in your career and doing well is a big accomplishment that not many heavyweight champions can lay claim to.


Liston as an inexperienced amatuer beat Olympic Heavyweight Champion 6'4 210lb Huge Punching Ed Sanders. Liston was very inexperienced at this stage. It was only an amatuer fight, but this was the same man who made Johansson put his tail between his legs. Liston showing natural talent like this and dominating a far more experienced Olympic Champion is something that should be warranted.


Entering the pros........


In just his 6th and 7th pro fights, Liston is thrown in against rising young prospect 20-1 Johnny Summerlin, who would crack the top 10 within a year. Johnny Summerlin would go on to become one of the better heavyweight contenders of the mid 1950s. Summerlin had skills, and beat solid opposition. Liston was only a raw novice when he twice beat Johnny Summerlin. Yes, these were very close fights that could have gone either way. However, Not many heavyweight champions in history beat such a good fighter by there 6th pro fight. I would be as bold to say Liston was thrown in there as a test from the Mobsters, to see just how good he really was. Liston could have easily lost this bout. Impressive coming away with two victories.


In listons 8th pro fight, he is thrown in against # 7 ranked light-heavyweight contender 18-5 marty marshall. Marshall was good enough to knockout Bob Satterfield. Liston outboxed marshall until a clowning technique left Liston laughing out loud for a second, enabling Marshall to hit him with a equalizer breaking liston's jaw in the process. This slowed liston down considerably, but liston toughened it out through excruciating pain to last in the distance. The result is a close split decision loss. In the rematch, Sonny beat the **** out of marshall knocking him out in 6. In retrospect, how many Heavyweight Champions in history took on a top 10 ranked contender in just there 7th and 8th pro fights?


Liston had a very casual year in 1955 but then picks up in 1956 with a one sided dominating win over marty marshall to win the trilogy. In hindsight, Sonny Liston was originally scheduled to face harold johnson on that date in 1956. Liston was just a 14-1 novice, yet his management was going to send Liston in vs # 1 ranked contender, and hall of famer, harold johnson. Just 4 days before the harold johnson-sonny liston fight, johnson pulled out due to an injury. Liston should get credit for his willingness to take on such a fighter that early in his career.


What Could Have Been?

Liston missed out on fighting most of 1956 and all of 1957. His legacy could have improved had he gotten to fight during these 2 years. He was just starting to mature into his physical prime by 1956-57 and certainly would have stepped up to the world class scene. Names like Harold Johnson, Archie Moore, Ingemar Johansson Young jack johnson, Harold carter, Hurricane jackson, Bob Baker all could have been potential opponents for liston during these years. Sonny could have added a few impressive names to his win column. Much like Louis missing out from 42-45 and Ali missing out 67-70, Liston did lose a couple prime years.

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Liston came back from prison in 1958. From 1958-62 Liston cleaned out the top heavyweight contenders in his division like few heavyweight champions ever did. Liston challenged and sought to fight all the top heavyweights 1958-62. Some of the top names liston defeated like Eddie Machen, Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, and Nino Valdes were all shunned from World Title shots from Cus Damato because they presented too much of a challenge. Liston is one of the few champions who can be accused of ducking no one. The ones he did miss out on fighting like Henry Cooper, Archie Moore, Ingemar Johansson, and Bob Cleroux did not seem to eager to fight him. In liston's 2 title defenses, he took on both number 1 contenders. Both happen to be hall of famers. Bottom Line, Liston was intent on taking on the best the division had to offer. Many great heavyweight champions missed out on fighting the biggest names of their era. Sonny did not.


C. Domination in Prime 1958-62


A big factor is domination. Many heayweight champions struggled with there best opposition they faced. Sonny Liston hardly struggled in his prime. He beat everyone clearly and uncontroversially for the most part. 1960 was Liston's breakout year. He catapulted himself into the # 1 slot, which impressive wins over top ranked contenders Zora Folley and Eddie Machen.


TKO 1 Wayne Bethea- Bethea was a top 10 ranked contender. Liston destroyed Bethea in 58 seconds. Bethea was known for having quite a great chin. He was never knocked out before or after the liston fight.

TKO 6 Mike Dejohn- One sided massacre over a dangerous ranked heavyweight. Dejohn stood near 6'5 and had menacing power in that left hook.

TKO 2 and TKO 3 Cleveland Williams- Liston took Williams apart with brutal intentions, but more importantly showed he could fight through adversity to weather williams early storm. Williams was a big fast slugger not many dared enter the ring against. In Williams best years 1957-1964, this was the only time Cleveland was ever stopped. Williams would crack the top 5 from 1961-1964.

KO 3 Zora Folley- Destroyed the # 1 rated heavyweight contender. Folley was master boxing technician with a excellent jab and good right hand.

TKO 4 Nino Valdez- Destroyed a fading but still dangerous contender in 4 one sided rounds. Valdes was another big man with power who liston laid out.

TKO 1 Roy Harris- Demolished a 22-1 ranked contender in embarrasingly easy fashion.

W 12 Eddie Machen- Won a close but clear cut decision over one of the better ring technicians of the era. Liston proved in this fight that if his power failed, he still had the skills to outpoint even the most skilled boxers. Machen was rated # 3 in the world at the time. Machen was a very polished boxer, with tremendous fundamentals, and pop in both hands.

KO 1 2x Floyd Patterson- Dominating performances over a heavyweight champion. These are arguably the two most dominating preformances over another prime great heavyweight we have ever witnessed. Patterson's combination of technique, speed, and power is the best this division's ever seen. It isn't easy to go out there and do what Liston did to him.

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One thing that makes liston standout amongst the rest is almost all of his best opponents he beat were fighters who were young, and in there primes. Many great heavyweight champions beat fighters who were considered green, or past there prime. Liston was one of the few heavyweight champions of all time who beat virtually all of his world class fighters when they were in there prime.

lets take a peek

Floyd patterson 26-27 years old at his peak

eddie machen 26 years old at his peak

cleveland williams 26-27 years old at his peak

zora folley 27 years old at his peak

mike dejohn 27 years old at his peak

johnny summerlin 21 years old entering his prime

roy harris 26 years old at his peak

Nino Valdez was the only one of the flock I would consider past his prime at 34 years old and near retirement. Still, valdes proved in the previous year he still had the size and power to make him a formidable opponent for anyone in the division.

 

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Liston defeated a wide range of styles and sizes. Something that is difficult to do because this makes you more vulnerable to have your weaknesses exposed.

Sluggers:

6'4 215lb cleveland williams 2x
6'3 215lb nino valdez
6'5 205lb mike dejohn


Slick-Counterpuncher:

Eddie Machen


Boxer-punchers:

Zora Folley
Johnny Summerlin

Puncher-Swarmer:

Floyd Patterson

Ackward Spoilers:

Wayne Bethea
Roy Harris
Marty Marshall

Tough Fringe Contenders/Journeyman

Gerhard Zech
Chuck Wepner
Henry Clark
Billy Hunter
Amos Lincoln
Roger Rischer
Albert Westphal
Bert Whitehurst 2x
Howard King

 

Beyond the most overrated HW on this site by a mile. And by some our best posters. Most have him rightfully outside the top 10, and others have him in that fair 6-10 spot. But some have him as far as #3. It's ludicrous. Liston should have trouble making your top 10 if you evaluate his legacy based on his resume, accomplishments, performances, longevity, etc. If you include skill-set/ability than he can be in that 5-10 spot. Even with H2H including he should probably not be in your top 5, let alone top 3.

 

I have him around no 6.

 

Agreed. These days I have him Top15 but not Top10.

 

Liston is easily top 10. I rate him # 3 all time. You have to look at what a man did in his OWN era, and he could not have accomplished anymore than he did on his run up to the title. He wiped out that division clean.

 

That goes to Vitali Klitschko

I would have to disagree. Most have him rightfully INSIDE the top 10.

Why?

He is a complete boxer puncher who has the tools to beat anyone in history, he cleaned out his division with authority, and holds numerous wins over some terrific fighters. I don't buy into that "longevity" crap. If Liston and Tyson can clean out there division in a 3 year span, I think that trumps taking 7 years to do it.

Outside of Louis and Ali, who did more with their era?

Why, outside of Ali who is a heavy favorite against him?

 

Maybe on the general forum.

I would say it's about 50/50 with in and out. My main point is I find him to be a borderline top 10. On the HW survey Liston did not make the top 10 list. He was ranked #11.

I don't rate on H2H like you, that's an entirely separate list. If I had, I think Liston would be in that 5-10 range for me. I'm not sure. He did clean out the post Marciano division. He has good resume with alright depth and a big name in Patterson. But I don't rate the era is being exceptional, and I also should point out that I judge his losing performances too. The man quit against a young Ali, and shamefully stayed down on the floor in the rematch. Maybe the fix was in, maybe he was threatened by the NOI or Mob but I truly don't know. What I do know is that type of defeat hugely hurts his standing legacy wise. The Patterson win is a big claim to his fame. He was briefly champion or defending the belt. Not his fault though due to being avoided.

I agree that activity is just as important as longevity. I rank Tyson in my top 10 (barely), and Liston was actually at one point in my top 10 but I felt it was undeserving.

Sonny did good for his era. His era is nothing exceptional, and his resume is good but not out of this world. I would say Frazier, Marciano, Lewis, and Tyson did. Foreman did his career in 2 parts as did Holmes. While Liston cleaned up and Holmes bracketed, his resume and 48-0 run to me is still more impressive. As is his performance against Mercer in the 90's and his losing effort against Holyfield rather than his 1 round KO loss to Ali and previous quit job against Ali.

With ATG I don't know who are truly heavy favorites against other ATG. Liston is tough one to judge, and solely an H2H list he is a top 5 type HW, even top 3. But regarding legacy, I don't think he stacks up as much.

I would favor Holyfield and Tyson to beat him. And I think Lewis, Holmes, and Foreman are 50/50 type fights.

 

Liston was a good world champ but all the best guys he dismantled had been dismantled before. when he got folley zorra was coming off a loss to the last rated guy he fought - henry cooper. sure sonny knocked out folley but young jack johnson and summerlin had already done this. dito cleveland wiliams who had been exposed by bob satterfield. dito Valdes via powel and machen by KO. eddie machen may have come to survive but even he had been exposed by ingo who had already burst floyd's buble for sonny.
This is not what can be said of the finest champions. when foreman Kod frazier he was the first to do it. Nobody but Louis Kod max baer and braddock. Nobody but ali Kod foreman. Nobody but tyson Kod spinks and holmes.