Was Liston a "dirty" fighter?

And Liston himself. So what though? I'm not jumping on this sole point though.

Can you prove Margarito knew about the tampering of his wrappings, or that it was his idea?

In boxing controversies like this there is hardly ever any proof or evidence. There's suspicion, but nothing for us to ever really know. Was there any proof LaMotta took a dive against Fox? Well there was suspicion the fix was in and the fact his performance was awful gave suspicion. Was he wrongfully suspended? Should his purse have been withheld? What about with Lou Resto? They would be no proof Resto knew anything. No prove about the mixing of drinks or the plaster and torn gloves. But now we hear testimony. Any real proof of corrupted judges, or is it just incompetence?

The fact is that Ali was blinded once in the 60 fights he had. Now, it doesn't prove Liston or his team blinded him but it raises suspicion. Just like Norton breaking Ali's jaw doesn't mean he had plaster in his gloves. In fact, thinking that would be silly. Ali had his mouth open and got caught. But Liston who was connected to the MOB and known to have done things for the MOB and has been involved with tons of controversy adds a little more credence to the suspicion.

Let me ask you this. Do you think Liston took a dive or went down and quit against Ali. If so... based on what? There's no proof he wasn't legitimately hurt or that he really did have trouble getting up.

 

I never said it did. But Dundee was very unaware and surprised of this. I think he would have someone been aware if he accidentally blinded his own fighter. I don't know.


I don't think he deemed it that. Unforgiven said one of Liston's cornerman confessed to it. That story is something I vaguely have heard too. All evidence, although lacking, seem to point to Dundee.

Neither have I. Bert Sugar said Williams said he was blinded. I doubt it happened in both fights. I really have no idea. I'm just saying the man has an unsavory reputation.

I don't know, I believe Liston or one of his corner-men did it to Ali. I really have no idea how many times he did but there are multiple stories.

An accident that originated in Liston's corner? How convenient.

Well next time the Liston vs Ali II fight comes up say that you have no proof or evidence and that we really don't know what happened. Okay.

Margarito might not have known.

Yet there's no witnesses that Resto was using less-padded gloves. Not until further examination. So how would someone examine how Ali got blinded?

 

Apparently Marciano thought it WAS deliberate. He never blamed Walcott, but blamed his handlers.

It's natural for fighters to suspect foul play. Not sure it's always a case of foul play though.

 

See that there in round 5? Thats Heart. Thats the stuff of legend. Ali had that innate sense of distance which cant be taught. Most guys would have gone from that eye burning.
I would also state,if listons corner put some linoment or something on liston to blind clay,then there is the risk that the substance could also blind liston as well. I mean,liston could smother it to clay,then clay could inadvertantly smother it to sonny during close combat.

 

There are reports that Al Weil was screaming crazy and reporters talking about how he was going nuts and how an inexperienced corner probably accidentally blinded Rocky.

If Walcott had past fighters jumping up that this happened to them. Or if Walcott was in deep with the MOB then maybe more suspicion would arise. But there's nothing to believe Walcott did.

 

Walcott was heavily mobbed-up as well, I think.
Then again, so was Al Weill.
Almost everyone in boxing was in 1952.

 

Walcott, like most other fighters, did have a manager who was allegedly connected to the mob.

http://books.google.fi/books?id=BH4...elix Bocchicchio&pg=PA118#v=onepage&q&f=false

A quote from the book:

"Or, most ominously, was Marciano blinded because of foul play and deliberate chemical warfare on the part of Walcott's corner (as Marciano later contended, fingering Bocchicchio as the prime culprit)?"

 

SRR didn't make deals with the MOB. He got calls and he said he didn't do business that way.

Wasn't Liston a henchman and actual worker for the MOB?

I'm not comparing but giving examples. You're not seeing the point because you're overtly literal that's it's nearly impossible to have a discussion with you.

It's a fact of life. The fact is things happen and in boxing there's generally no proof unless proof is revealed. That proof is usually a testimony or something. Apparently, the testimony of 2 other fighters are irrelevant to you. That's fine. There is nothing far-fetched in thinking Liston blinded Ali though.

You're starting to really miss my point.

I'd like to hear the proof on the Aaron Pryor black bottle case actually.

You're so obtuse. Obviously he admitted it. But before-hand was their any real proof it happened. No, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The idea that is what you got from my post is bizarre.

There is no concrete evidence.

That's called suspicion. Which is almost the equivalent if thinking Dirrell appeared to fake or exaggerate his injury against Abraham.

Here's what we have.

Previous opponents of Liston claiming their eyes were burning too (And more than one saying this. I guess they were all just jumping on the conspiracy then). And Ali being blinded. That's a lot of testimony. What does Machen gain from making this up?

 

I want a source on this.

Testimony is evidence by the way. So there is evidence, not much. If Machen and others actually testified than Liston could get convicted (Partly because he was a hated black man seen as a thug and poor representation as an American HW Champ).

 

Well, Machen was an ex-con too, an armed robber like Liston if I remember rightly. And he had mental health issues. Hardly a star witness.