Liston -vs- Holyfield:

Hm, where do you see Jack Johnson and Jim Jeffries in the strength departement? Personally, I think they are up there with Foreman and Liston.

Depends how Holy fights. If he goes to war strength will be more important than speed and I see Liston winning that one on points. If Holy boxes his speed will be very important. I can see Holyfield winning this fight but speed is beaten by a good timed jab. This is one of Liston´s strength and Liston has the longer reach too. Holy can win it if it becomes a boxing match but I wouldn´t bet on it. Overall I´d favour Liston.

 

Jeffries did not know how to apply his strength in the ring. That is why super middleweights whom he outweighed by nearly 40lb were able to go many many rounds with him. How long does Choysnki, Fitzsimmons, Sharkey last with a foreman or liston? I give them each 2 rounds apiece.


Johnson's different. He knew how to manhandle smaller fighters. Ketchell and Burns could be seen getting tossed around on film.


Another name is Rocky Marciano. Charles, Walcott, Louis, Moore none of them said he was the hardest hitter they faced. However, all 4 of them said rocky was "Far and away the STRONGEST fighter i ever fought". Rocky had that short stocky freakish type strength.

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Inconsistent? Really?

Holyfield went undefeated from late 1984 - late 1992. During that time he went 28-0 (22) overall and 10-0 (7) in World Title fights. At that point he was 4-0 (1) vs. Hall of Famers Qawi x2, Foreman, and Holmes.

How in the hell is that inconsistent?

His first loss was to Bowe at the age of 30. He used to make Bowe quit during sparring sessions and took a win over Bowe for granted... he paid for it. He was much better in the rematch even if Bowe wasn't... he rocked Bowe several times and won a decisive decision even though one judge had it even.

After the win over Bowe he should have retired... but we would have never seen him beat Tyson. Both men were past prime in '96 but Holyfield rose to the occasion and beat the man he always knew he could beat.

As for Liston? He was great but he seems to get better and better with each year that passes, I don't get it.

 

Yes. Believe it or not, nearly losing to journeyman, struggling to beat very old man, and losing to a light-heavyweight constitutes inconsistency.

Are you really bringing up tremendous struggles against 45 year old men and a split decision win over a 5'7 fighter as means to support your arguement?

Don't make excuses. He got his ass kicked by Bowe. Plain and Simple.

Disagree. Ive seen the fight. It was very close. Close enough that I don't know who won. I scored it 114-114. I am not alone in that opinion.

Well,

I think the 88 tyson knocks out Evander. However, that is a completely different thread.

Perhaps people are opening their eyes and realizing just how dominant a force this guy was in his era, and in the ring.

 

people forget how tough and durable holyfeild was. only bowe Ko'd holyfield and evender was experiencing some strange stuff that night, holyfield had something wrong with him an asthma atack or something. remeber he could not folow up when he had bowe helpless. thats the trouble with holyfeild he had some strange nights but he always had heart. when he lost to moorer there was something wrong with his shoulders and a heart defect there are resons why he did not perform.

an in form holyfeild is beter than anyone liston beat. an in form evander is tougher and more durable than anyone liston beat. I always give liston a chance with anyone since he had so many qualitys but evander was just beter than all the guys liston beat. when evander got hurt he always came back with fire and he could realy put his shots together well.

The key to beat liston was landing consecutive shots and breaking his momentum. Not many people were good enough to land consecutive shots on liston since he hurt so many guys before they adjusted to his range. sonny could always reach you. sonny could also shorten his range meaning he was potent at all times but evander knew how to use his angles and was very sharp. buster douglas had a great jab (as long as listons) but faster yet evander would beat buster to the draw and pick him off. a fired up holyfeild was hard to beat. remember liston does not have the giants advantage that bowe and lewis had. without heart or shoulder problems I fancy a fired up evander doing liston in prety good style.

 

But he did have their giant reach advantage 84". Evander hated long left jabs.


Liston also had 15" fists, bigger than anyone else in history

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Yes he had their reach as did buster douglas, holmes and valuv. I scored the first lewis fight even (in rounds not punches) and the second fight I had evander winning but they were both close. holyfeild simply fought the wrong fight against bowe first time around but he did lose it. the second one bowe was fortunate there was a fan man in the ring evander was kicking his ass but the 20 min break alowed bowe back into it, fan man made it close not bowes reach. the third one evander should have won by KO. It was more a case of holy losing than bowe winning it.

theres no doubt liston had freakish proportions but apart from some exceptions against guys a pound or so within his own weight or more (he only fought 6 guys heavier) he did not make a monster inmpresion as he did on the likes of intimidated floyd or tiny westphal or outmatched harris all considrably smaller. I think evander gets unaswered 3 punch combos on liston dispite sonnys bigger hands.

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Since a second career Foreman still managed to give a prime Holyfield a good fight my money would be on a prime Liston to KO Evander somewhere between, say, the 7th and 10th round. Holyfield might be ahead on the scorecards at the time, but Sonny will get him eventually.

 

I like Evander,what he did to Tyson, you really have to respect his taming of the beast.Sonny is my favorite,and I am no doubt biased,I just think Evander can't resist punching it out and gets busted up.8 or nine round stoppage,with Sonny the winner.

 

I hate to say it, I dont even like Holyfield, but he is more athletic than Liston probably better schooled and would win on points

 

considering holy does not do good against big heavyweights I really don't think he would be able to cope with Liston's jab. evander was easy to hit. plus Liston was probably more stronger then bowe and Lewis plus he hits harder. and liston would man handle him on the inside, taking away evanders left hook and other weapons. and I just think he would eat that overhand too easy. the one that knocked Roy Harris the **** out.
but I personally think evander would go slugging because of that warrior mentality inside him, and that would be his downfall.

 

I think the versions of Qawi x2, Foreman, and Holmes that Holyfield fought are being greatly underrated.

In many ways Foreman was better in the very early 90's than he was in the 70's. He was bigger, stronger, smarter, and paced himself well. He had a little less snap on his punches and he was just a little bit slower but he was never fast anyway. I'm talking about the Foreman who fought Holyfield in '91. Not the Foreman who fought Morrison or even Moorer in '94.

The Holmes that Holyfield fought was much better than the Holmes Tyson fought. When Holmes fought Tyson he had not fought in 2 years or won a fight in 3. He took Tyson lightly and even recorded an album while in training... dumb! When Holmes fought Holyfield he had won 6 in a row including a near shut out over a prime Ray Mercer.

Say what you will about Qawi but he was a great fighter. Only Holyfield and Foreman were able to stop him. Holyfield fought him in only his 12th pro fight... W15.

Cooper? Cooper was dropped in the 1st with a body shot. He clearly lost 5 of the first 6 rounds. He was stopped in the 7th. Holyfield was fighting in his home town and took Cooper for granted... do you really think he would have fought like that vs. Tyson? Cooper had nothing to lose and rose to the occasion.

 

Liston struggled vs. Johnny Summerlin. We won two 8 round decisions vs. him, the rematch was a split-decision. Summerlin was about 195Lbs. It was only Liston's 6th and 7th pro fights though.

Liston went 2-1 (1) vs. Marty Marshall. Marshall broke Liston's jaw in their first fight (Liston's 8th pro fight). Marshall was about 180Lbs. and far from great.

Wayne Bethea, Frankie Daniels, Mike DeJohn, and Roy Harris weren't much!

Nino Valdes was never much IMO but he was far past prime when he fought Liston.

Cleveland Williams is overrated IMO. He beat Ernie Terrell and drew with Eddie Machen. He also lost to Terrell. Other than that he lost to every decent fighter he faced... badly.

Folley and Machen were very good as I mentioned before.

Patterson is an all-time great but he was down more than any other HW champ ever (20 times). He was down 9 times in 3 fights vs. Johansson.

Holyfield had the right combination of size, strength, durability, speed, power, and boxing ability.

 

Holyfield stands 2" taller but his reach is 6" shorter.

I'm sick of hearing about the size of Liston's fist... it doesn't matter.

People used to talk about the size of Liston's neck, Holyfield's neck is bigger! That matters more than the fist.

They were close in weight, 210-215Lbs.

Many assume Liston is stronger, why? A prime Holyfield had insane strength. I give Liston the edge in punching power but that doesn't mean he was stronger.

 

All this talk about "Liston's superior strength" .....

I'm not even convinced Liston was as strong as Holyfield, nevermind stronger.
And if he was, he wasn't always great at utilizing it.

Holyfield is the better fighter, fought the better fighters, beat the better fighters, showed he could adapt to various styles and he never quit. Holyfield's a bona fide all-time great heavyweight.