Liston -vs- Holyfield:

:good and liston never beat anyone as good as holyfield. liston beat already exposed guys then did 2 quit jobs. he was hard to beat but theres no geting away from the quitjobs and already exposed guys.

 

Whats that supposed to mean?


Liston defeated top ranked and dangerous contenders, all of them under 30 years of age, and in there primes.


Was Charles exposed by Harold Johnson, Rex Layne Nino Valdes prior to fighting Marciano?

Was Walcott exposed by Layne and Charles prior to fighting Marciano?

Was Archie Moore exposed by Harold Johnson, Henry Hall, Ezzard Charles prior to fighting Marciano?

Was lastarza exposed by Rocky Jones and Dan Bucceroni prior to fighting Marciano

Was Layne exposed by Dave Whitlock prior to fighting Marciano?

 

^ Very biased way of comparing their two careers.

 

I was making a point about chokelab's double standards. Feel Free to pick up on that whenever you decide to turn your brain on.

 

Natural Strength beats artificial strength any day in my book.

Please provide detailed examples.

Great Logic

Holyfield fought and beat better fighters than any heavyweight outside of Ali. Does this mean he beats all of them too? You have to take into account holyfield's mediocre performances vs old men, 2nd raters, plus some of his losses.

He certainly showed he could never adapt to men with long 84" left jabs. In fact he went 1-4 against such men.

He also never got out of his terrible habit of falling into the trap of attempting to brawl with stronger harder punching opponents. If he tries to brawl with Liston, he will get knocked out.

Sure. I believe Liston is signifigantly better though.

 

Well, you made the exact same points in a post a few pages ago, NOT in response to anyone's double-standards :

 

What do you mean by "natural strength" and "artificial strength" ?

Well, Eddie Machen threw Liston around a couple of times. Clay tied Liston up almost every time he needed to.
If Sonny was so strong and good at utilizing his strength he would have done shown it those situations.
Anyway, I dont think he was stronger than Holyfield, so I dont need to go down that road.

Holyfield's proven against a very high caliber of opposition. So, yes, he is bankable. Of course he'd not invincible.

I dont think he was at his best against Lewis, he was a few years past it already, but he did quite well.
Bowe beat him more on the inside and toe-to-toe than with his reach.

Or maybe Liston gets knocked out. Or folds up his tent after a few rounds with Holyfield out-gutting him, out-thinking him, and out-lasting him.

Based on what ?
Liston beat a few reasonably good contenders over a 3 or 4 year period then punked out against Clay/Ali.
Holyfield was a top-flight operator for 10 years or more, and beat a larger number of ranked contenders, came through more tough fights, beat better fighters and on average faced stronger and harder hitting opponents than Liston did.

 

I keep hearing about Liston's 84" reach. I actually read once that the listed "tale of the tape" on Liston was wrong anyway. I read that his reach, his fist, and his neck was actually smaller than listed. It is true that he had several towels on him under his robe to make himself look bigger right before his fights though.

He was just under 6'1". It's different when you have that reach and your 6'5" like Bowe and Lewis. Liston didn't have the leverage that they had. It's different when your 6'3" and taller like Ali, Holmes, and Foreman. Punching down is easier than punching up. When you punch up the power of the shot is decreased.

With that said, I will say this... I honestly feel that Holyfield was the stronger man. Some of you are really underrating him here. Lee Haney (8 time Mr. Olympia) used to lift with Holyfield. He claimed that Holyfield benched 455 Lbs. eight times one day after they had already lifted that day. True? Who knows? Is it really true that a young Foreman couldn't make an old Liston back up... but Leotis Martin could knock the crap out of him?

 

I accept what you are saying but it dosnt compare IMO. folley was a good scalp but he had lost to the last rated guy he fought and had been knocked out on two other ocasions to guys inferior to harold johnson, hall, charles, moore even bucceroni.

marcianos guys had winning runs against rated guys. who are the run of rated guys williams had beat? charles kod walace and satterfield. lastarza beat laynne and had a disputed history rather like summerlin against Liston who was inferior in every way to lastarza. whitlock did not KO Layne was defeated by rex in a return.

 

Folley was not knocked out prior to 1960. He retired in his corner between rounds in both fights. I do not see how folley suffering two stoppage losses very early in his career takes away credit from liston knocking him out while in the prime of his career, and # 1 rated.

How would you know?

1. Marciano also defeated some of his top opponents who were over the age of 30, while Liston defeated his top opponents who were under the age of 30.

2. Marciano did not clean out his era entirely. Top rated fighters like Clarence Henry, Nino Valdes, and Bob Baker were all qualified to share a ring with Marciano. They were younger than Moore, Louis, Walcott, Charles. Rocky beat the best of his era, but also left a few nice names out. Sonny didn't leave anyone out(except johansson who refused to fight him). Sonny took on the men no one wanted to fight, and demolished them.

Rocky could have fought fighters like Baker and Henry in 1951-1952



Baker Boy

"Combing the entire world, one probably couldn't name more than a dozen young HW's. whose possibilities for future headlines status would be regarded with even a faint dash of enthusiasm.

Generally rated as the best of the "freshmen" who have been attracting varying degrees of attention of late are Roland LaStraza of NY, Rocky Marciano of Brockton; Rex Layne of Jordan; Frankie Buford of Oakland; Calarence Henry of LA, Cesar Brion of the Argentine, Jaack Gardner of England, Connie Rux of Germany - and Bob Baker of Pittsburgh.

Of the lot, Baker shapes up as one of the likliest.

The powerful 23 year old 205lb negro seems to have many of the answers for which the promoters and fans have been so eagerly hunting. He can box, punch, and has proven ability to survive rough going and fight back to win.

Not since Louis came roaring out of the amateurs more than 16 years ago, to blas his way almost overnight into international prominence in the pro ring has any young HW risen to rapidly and in such spectacular fashion as Baker. It is only a year and a half since the Pittsburgher made his adent into the money ranks and his record to date embraces only 17 bouts, but he has already earned a place well up The Ring's rankings." - October 1950 Ring Magazine

It is hard to get rated contenders in the ring, when they are scared to fight you.

Billy Daniels was rated 6th in the world by Ring Magazine
Alex Miteff was rated 7th in the world by Ring Magazine

He knocked out Ernie Terrell, who would go on to become WBA champion. This was the only time Terrell was knocked until he was long past his prime. He lost a disputed decision in the rematch in which he knocked Terrell down. AP scored it 46-45 for Williams.

He Drew with # 3 rated Eddie Machen. AP scored the fight for Williams.

He broke the nose of a prime sonny liston and staggered him on mutiple occasions.

He also defeated other tough fringe contenders like John Holman, Wayne Bethea, Young Jack Johnson, Alonzo Johnson, Sonny Banks, Dick Richardson, Curley Lee Chapman. Most of them by Brutal Knockout.

How would you know? Lastarza was a very coddled fighter. there are some major question marks on his career.



"His reputation was built on the first Rocky fight. Although he had a long winning streak at the beginning of his career, there are no tough names on his record. After the first Marciano fight he could have forced the issue by meeting top fighters. He refused fights with Charles, Clarence Henry, Bob Baker etc. Lost and avenged to overstuffed lt.heavy Dan Bucceroni and to lt. heavy Rocky Jones and looked terrible against Jones in the rematch. The Jones win and a victory over the faded Rex Layne gave him the credentials to meet Rocky for the title. A fight I am told Rocky was more intent on giving Roland a beating for all of the talk that he "was afraid" to meet LaStarza again than KOing him early which I believe he could have done easily. Look at LaStarza's record there are no tough names on it except for Marciano.I have the complete film of the Jones rematch and believe me LaStarza looked terrible. Jones was approached at the morning weigh-in by Jimmy White (Amato) a shadowy figure who was a mob contact man and manager and told Rocky "we don't wan't any of that stuff that happened in Akron."Jones had two good rounds then was told to "cool it." LaStarza NEVER fought a danerous opponent except Marciano and thats a fact if you know any of the fighters from his era. I am not saying that LaStarza was a coward but he (or, excuse me, his management) refused matches with Henry, Charles, Baker, and Archie Moore. In an article in RING magazine after his career LaStarza admitted as much, saying he wouldn't take those matches because he "deserved" a rematch with Marciano and thought he was offered the other matches by the IBC only because they were trying to knock him out of "his rightful shot at Marciano." Boo Hoo Hoo. Real, confident fighters go out and prove they deserve their shot by beating dangerous fighters to force a showdown with a champion. Again, let me reinterate-when Marciano fought LaStarza the first time Rocky was boxing for the first time after the Vingo tragedy. Rocky had threatened to quit boxing. Is it any wonder he was not the usual agressive Marciano but an understandably gunshy, tenitive boxer that night ?"- Chuck Hasson Boxing Historian and Philly Boxing Founder

Whitlock was an average lightheavyeight who exposed Layne.




See how I can spin things around on Marciano like your doing to Liston?

 

he was rated below cooper who had beat him by that point. the point I make is he had been stopped before. twice. once by summerlin who liston knew prety well. the othertime was y.j. johnson who was a novice.

marcinao beat the guys with thye best credentials at that time. these were huge fights that the public wanted, he never went lower than #2 rated chalenger who beat the younger fighters who were less worthy.

did he leave them out or did he land more significant fights? Louis never fought ray, bivins (for a title) and ali did not fight amos johnson, machen or bobick it does not efect their legacy so why rocky?

not if joe louis was a bigger fight and a faster route to the title. old joe beat agramonte and brion who were fresh on the scene.

works both ways. if the money is there and a win ratio favours your kid it hapens. wiliams people took him to newyork but he was exposed on the marciano-lastarza undercard so they content to sell him as a local atraction in texas. and they still slipped up with satterfield.

but this was after liston fought him. what was his run at that time?

there was no brutal knock out against richardson. wiliams was a brutal flop. he did not want to fight and behaved alarmingly until richardson headbutted him and got disqualified. in a rematch wiliams refused to fight because he could not find his lucky shorts and was never booked to fight in the uk again.

not by knock out. wiliams and machen were stretched out prior to fighting liston. thats exposed. folley had been found out at a level also.

I can see it but its not the same.

 

You mutha****as is crazy! This thread has gotten out of hand. People are throwing out names of fighters who never amounted to ****... like they were avoided. Gimme a ****ing break.

Liston is an all-time great but he's on a level below Holyfield. He beat some good fighters on the way to getting a title shot. Once he lost the title he didn't beat anybody notable, unless you think Wepner was somebody special. 2-2 (2) in HW World Title fights and both wins were against Patterson. Williams x2, Folley, Machen, Patterson x2, and Ali x2. 6-2 (5) vs. these men and stopped twice. These are the only fights Liston had that matter to me.

 

Holyfield fought Qawi x2, Ocasio, DeLeon, Thomas, Dokes, Douglas, Foreman, Holmes, Bowe x3, Moorer x2, Mercer, Tyson x2, Lewis x2, Ruiz, Rahman, Byrd, Toney, Oquendo, Valuev, and others. He's 147 years old and still fighting.

 

atsch

 

how do I know ezzard charles, archie moore, old joe louis, roland lastarza and rex layne were beter than jimmy summerlin and young jack johnson? :shock: