Kelly Pavlik Logs In Worst Perfomance of His Career

hoopsman · Apr 20, 2010

Strike said: ↑

Do you think he should move up? His frame certainly lends itself to moving up.
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What's up, Strike? :good

Do I think he should move up? I am afraid he may have to, given present circumstances.

However, I am not particularly confident about his ability to impact at 168. Ward, Direll, Bute-- these guys are terrific fighters who would pose any manner of problems for Kelly. Moreover, I am not sure if his punching power carries as well at 168.

Lampley · Apr 20, 2010

I also don't have great optimism for Pavlik at 168. Usually, moving up in weight when you have a speed disadvantage does not portend well.

That said, I think Pavlik/Andrade would be a good starter fight, hopefully after Kelly takes some time off. I know he's been out recently, but he needs to get out of Youngstown and do some soul-searching.

twopiece · Apr 20, 2010

booradley said: ↑

Good to see pal --

I still think Arthur will knock Froch out. With Pavlik I think there is a very strong possibility that we are looking at a shot fighter. When a professional boxer cannot pull the trigger, that is often the first sign of a down hill spiral.

A lot of boxing fans are band wagon jumpers. They jump on the band wagon after a guy is already established, and then jump right back off at the first sign of trouble.

That hasn't been the case with my support of Pavlik. I have supported him through thick and thin ever since 2006. After I first took note of him, I went back and watched everything I could find. I've seen about 30 of his fights. Based on my knowledge of who Kelly Pavlik was, long before Saturday's fight, I said loud and clear, "If he can't beat this guy, he should seriously consider retirement." Now I've got people flaming the **** out of me, and claiming I'm somehow "making excuses," simply because I pointed out a marked decline, and stayed the course on my original statement.

Sometimes I honestly question my own sanity for bothering with this forum.
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So you're saying Kelly Pavlik should think about retiring now?

pavlik fan · Apr 20, 2010

imo i think pavlik should do the rematch and if he loses again move up.. he did have a much harder time getting to 160 this time ... and again i think he should try one more time and if he has as hard of a time this time ..... move up... thats if he fights again.

twopiece · Apr 20, 2010

Strike said: ↑

You were flat out delusional when you overrated as exciting and very good fighter to the level of a potentially all time great fighter. Remember when you and I had debates over fights with Calzaghe and Kessler? I specifically said that Pavlik has awful footwork, that when the right hand missed (and I even used an example from a dominant win against Lockett to illustrate it) his whole torso was dragged forwards and off balance, so he had to re-set himself. And that basically the first good counter puncher with lateral movement and decent handspeed would cause him fits?

And that someone like Calzaghe would Lacy him. 1-12, because of the angles, movement and Pavliks huge technical flaws. You laughed, and said Pavlik would KO him. Next fight he faces just that sort of fighter, a counter puncher with a fast, sneaky right and good angles...in Hopkins. And he got whipped.

Since then, he goes on a run and then next fighter of that ilk he gets beaten again.

This golden period of his that you refer to saw him fight one top tier fighter in Taylor. You have spent the past couple of years trying to upsell Zuniga, McKart etc as great fighters. They're not. KPs best names are Taylor and Miranda, and what has happened to the latter every time he has stepped into the top tier? He has been beaten.

Pavlik is a world championship level fighter, gives great value in most of his fights and can win another title, but he was never the fighter you tried to paint him to be. Yes he did well to get off the floor and beat Taylor, but Taylor finished badly, it could easily have been all over in 2 rounds. But credit where it is due, KP showed heart and belief. But the fact is that he has lost to the type of boxer he was always going to have trouble with if he couldn't land the big bomb.

And he can move up in weight, do whatever he likes in terms of conditioning, but if he steps in with a Ward or a Dirrel or Bute etc, he loses again.
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Great post. That's all there is to it. :thumbsup

Strike · Apr 20, 2010

So at 28 and after having a total of 5 fights at the world level he is shot?:roll: Funny that he went from peak against Taylor in February 2008 and by October of the same year he was shot. That was a pretty rapid decline for a 26 year old.

Boro chris · Apr 20, 2010

hoopsman said: ↑

You are correct to an extent, but I am talking about his seeming reluctance to throw back when attacked. Instead, as ilyrmarti pointed out in another thread, he merely covered until the opposing attack ceased.
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Its hard to say. You certainly have a point and I was reminded of Clottey v Pac at times. Often the truth is somewhere inbetween.:think However I think the KP of the Taylor fights still loses to SM.

sdsfinest22 · Apr 20, 2010

booradley said: ↑

i have not posted since saturday afternoon because it has taken me a little time to figure out what i really want to say.

I will try not to take to much credit away from martinez. He did a good job of taking advantage of the over all situation, and won the lineal middleweight championship of the world. He didn't just win. He clearly beat a man who had previously never even allowed another middleweight to finish on his feet. He did it with style and class, and fought like a champion throughout the fight.

I called this the worst perforrmance of pavlik's career because i cannot imagine the version of pavlik we saw saturday night lasting more than 5 rounds with bernard hopkins, and i certainly cannot imagine that version getting off the canvass to knock people out. Saturday's version of pavlik would have trouble squeaking past sergio mora!

From the moment pavlik took his t-shirt off i knew in my own heart that it was going to be a long night. What i saw standing there was 178 pounds of flab. Pathetic, weak looking, flab. I'll get to jack leow and the cutman momentarily, but it was kelly pavlik who blew up to 190 pounds after the espino fight. Responsibilty for that little act of ******ation lies squarely at the feet of kelly pavlik, and no where else.

One of the things that i admired about pavlik was that he appeared to have the balls of a rinocerous. Saturday night he exhibited the balls of a ****ing field mouse! Within the first minute of the fight he looked like he didn't want to be there, and he sure as hell didn't want to fight. Beginning in the fifth round, for 5 straight rounds he landed between 38% and 45% of his punches, and he still wouldn't let his freaking hands go. The most punches he threw in a single round was 55. A good illustration of how bad that is lies in the fact that in that infamous 2nd round of the first taylor fight, he still threw 60 punches. With everything on the line; his titles, his drawing power, his fan base, his career, his reputation, and his future, kelly pavlik disappointed his fans again.

And yes, pavlik suffered some nasty cuts which may, or may not, have been a game changer. But why? When pavlik was on through the ropes i ask him to address sergio's lead left and his right hook. Pavlik gave a detailed and sensible explaination of how to neutralize the lead left, and then acted like the right hand was no big deal! He got cut up because he wasn't ****ing paying attention to details! Yes, the cutman was an imcompetant boob, and as it turns out, he was some guy pavlik wanted to help out and do a favor for!! In spite of the fact that cameron dunkin pleaded with pavlik to use miguel diaz, pavlik insisted on doing that joker a favor. Once again, repsonsiblity lies at pavlik's feet and no where else.

Now, what about jack leow? It seems like leow's fight plan revolved around keeping the faster, more agile, more mobile man, out at the end of pavlik's jab. Ya, that's real ****ing bright! However, from the very day pavlik signed with top rank and cameron dunkin, the folks at top rank, and dunkin himself, have all but begged pavlik to get rid of leow. Pavlik does not listen.

Right now, kelly pavlik needs to take a long hard look at himself and his choices. He needs to decide if he wants to be remembered as a decent fighter who briefly held the middleweight title, but never lived up to his potential, or, if he still really wants to be a force in the business of boxing.

If he wants to move forward, he needs to shut the **** up, and allow cameron dunkin and bob arum to guide his carrer. The man clearly is not smart enough to manage on his own.
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told u so man..next time u should not let ur bias blind u so much

twopiece · Apr 20, 2010

Jack said: ↑

It really annoys me when people say "Why wasn't he throwing as many punches as usual?". You can't look at his numbers against Lockett or Rubio and expect Pavlik to throw that amount of punches against a mover. I said this many times before the fight, in reply to people saying Pavlik's workrate would win him the fight - Pavlik doesn't have great workrate if you aren't there for him. If you stand there, sure, he'll throw 80 punches a round but he can not hit a moving target. It's as simple as that.

Pavlik was the same fighter he always was and when Maravilla stopped moving, he looked good again. He just can't cope with movement because he's such a rangey fighter, has no inside game and poor movement himself.

The whole argument is the wrong way around. It's like saying "If Arsenal had passed the ball around against Barcelona, like they did against Hull, they'd have won".
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The movement argument is valid. In the corner, Pav kept trying to admit that the movement was bothering him. He wanted to say he couldn't get his punches off, but at one point in between rounds, Loew reassurred him "Don't say we can't get our punches off, don't say that!"

Maravilla befuddled and beat Kelly Pavlik up. Pavlik not bringing a decent cutman imo is a reflection on a little bit of overconfidence. They probably thought that this Junior Middleweight would fold up after a few right hand connects, but it didn't happen.

Sergio opened the second cut on HIS terms with a spirited onslaught in the 9th, however he cut Pav's other eye with punches early on. Single hard shots caused both cuts. The first cut was before the middle rounds when Pav started doing a little better. Therefore I don't buy the "I couldn't see because of the cuts" excuse.

I also don't buy the other thinly veiled excuses in these threads where people are supposedly "manning up" either. I got this fight wrong too, but the better man on the night won the fight, plain and simple. If anything, all the **** people said before this fight about how bad Sergio is as a fighter makes Kelly losing a real ****ing embarrassment.

TommyV · Apr 20, 2010

Strike said: ↑

So at 28 and after having a total of 5 fights at the world level he is shot?:roll: Funny that he went from peak against Taylor in February 2008 and by October of the same year he was shot. That was a pretty rapid decline for a 26 year old.
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Alcohol is a helluva drug.

Young PW · Apr 20, 2010

booradley said: ↑

I have not posted since Saturday afternoon because it has taken me a little time to figure out what I really want to say.

I will try not to take to much credit away from Martinez. He did a good job of taking advantage of the over all situation, and won the lineal middleweight championship of the world. He didn't just win. He clearly beat a man who had previously never even allowed another middleweight to finish on his feet. He did it with style and class, and fought like a champion throughout the fight.

I called this the worst perforrmance of Pavlik's career because I cannot imagine the version of Pavlik we saw Saturday night lasting more than 5 rounds with Bernard Hopkins, and I certainly cannot imagine that version getting off the canvass to knock people out. Saturday's version of Pavlik would have trouble squeaking past Sergio Mora!

From the moment Pavlik took his T-Shirt off I knew in my own heart that it was going to be a long night. What I saw standing there was 178 pounds of flab. Pathetic, weak looking, flab. I'll get to Jack Leow and the cutman momentarily, but it was Kelly Pavlik who blew up to 190 pounds after the Espino fight. Responsibilty for that little act of ******ation lies squarely at the feet of Kelly Pavlik, and no where else.

One of the things that I admired about Pavlik was that he appeared to have the balls of a rinocerous. Saturday night he exhibited the balls of a ****ing field mouse! Within the first minute of the fight he looked like he didn't want to be there, and he sure as hell didn't want to fight. Beginning in the fifth round, for 5 straight rounds he landed between 38% and 45% of his punches, and he still wouldn't let his freaking hands go. The most punches he threw in a single round was 55. A good illustration of how bad that is lies in the fact that in that infamous 2nd round of the first Taylor fight, he still threw 60 punches. With everything on the line; his titles, his drawing power, his fan base, his career, his reputation, and his future, Kelly Pavlik disappointed his fans again.

And yes, Pavlik suffered some nasty cuts which may, or may not, have been a game changer. But why? When Pavlik was on Through the Ropes I ask him to address Sergio's lead left and his right hook. Pavlik gave a detailed and sensible explaination of how to neutralize the lead left, and then acted like the right hand was no big deal! He got cut up because he wasn't ****ing paying attention to details! Yes, the cutman was an imcompetant boob, and as it turns out, he was some guy Pavlik wanted to help out and do a favor for!! In spite of the fact that Cameron Dunkin pleaded with Pavlik to use Miguel Diaz, Pavlik insisted on doing that joker a favor. Once again, repsonsiblity lies at Pavlik's feet and no where else.

Now, what about Jack Leow? It seems like Leow's fight plan revolved around keeping the faster, more agile, more mobile man, out at the end of Pavlik's jab. Ya, that's real ****ing bright! However, from the very day Pavlik signed with Top Rank and Cameron Dunkin, the folks at Top Rank, and Dunkin himself, have all but begged Pavlik to get rid of Leow. Pavlik does not listen.

Right now, Kelly Pavlik needs to take a long hard look at himself and his choices. He needs to decide if he wants to be remembered as a decent fighter who briefly held the middleweight title, but never lived up to his potential, or, if he still really wants to be a force in the business of boxing.

If he wants to move forward, he needs to shut the **** up, and allow Cameron Dunkin and Bob Arum to guide his carrer. The man clearly is not smart enough to manage on his own.
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YEA YEA YEA....Whatever....you talked all that **** before the fight...now you feel stupid....I TOLD YOU he would get his ass handed to him...its not that he had a bad performance, its that he was super overrated from the beggining....he beat jermain taylor and thats it....say goodbye to you fav boxer loser...its over for him

twopiece · Apr 20, 2010

Lampley said: ↑

The big problem with Boo's rationale is the middle rounds, when Pavlik looked as strong and sharp as he always has.

The difference is that in the past he never had to deal with movers and counterpunchers, and Martinez simply wasn't going to stand in front of him any more than necessary. Same thing with Hopkins.

The variable isn't Pavlik it's his opponent.

Kelly is a very good fighter at 160 but was fortunate that both his eliminator and title shot came against guys who were there to be hit. He never would have won a strap if he weren't able to burn down to MW, because he never was going to beat Calzaghe or the 2007-ish version of Kessler.

And if he moves up and takes on Ward or Bute, same thing. He might do everything right and still lose, simply because he isn't equipped to beat A-level guys of that style.

Your post is extremely disrespectful of Pavlik, and all in the name of soothing your own ego. Poor form. And this after Kelly was such a gentleman after the defeat.
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Another great post in this thread. :good

King Leonidas · Apr 20, 2010

Strike said: ↑

So at 28 and after having a total of 5 fights at the world level he is shot?:roll: Funny that he went from peak against Taylor in February 2008 and by October of the same year he was shot. That was a pretty rapid decline for a 26 year old.
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:nono

Common sense is not welcome in this thread. :good

Hermit · Apr 20, 2010

pavlik fan said: ↑

thats if he fights again.
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????? Is that being seriously kicked about?????

Ring Master · Apr 20, 2010

Damn Boo, I know it must have been hard watching your hero getting his ass whipped like that. I feel for you.

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