who did they ever beat ?

Louis in his 4th fight fought Jack Kranz, a local fighter, and reportedly had a very close fight against him. Did Kranz have his number?

 

His wins over Williams x2, Folley, Machen, and Patterson are impressive.

His losses to Marty Marshall, Ali x2, and Leotis Martin not so much.

He also beat Johnny Summerlin x2, Marty Marshall x2, Wayne Bethea, Frankie Daniels, Mike DeJohn, Nino Valdes, Willi Besmanoff, Howard King x2, Roy Harris, Albert Westphal, Henry Clark, and Chuck Wepner among others. Not the best of the best but somewhat capable fighters to say the least.

50-4 (39) overall and 2-2 (2) in HW World Title fights. He was stopped 3 times.

He didn't duck anybody but that doesn't mean that his resume is great either.

Liston is an all-time great but not as great as some think IMO.

 

I also don't see the point in discrediting every of Liston's opponents for having been stopped. With that kind of logic you could discredit anybody's opposition, including Marciano's. Summerlin was stopped on cuts years previously by a fighter who went onto later be stopped by Bucceroni. Bucceroni stopped Bascom who was on the downhill slide with numerous recent losses already.

Didn't you always talk up Charles's knockouts of Bob Satterfield and Coley Wallace? Bob Satterfield was knocked out by just about everybody, and lost to Wes Bascom too. Wallace was "exposed" by a washed up Jimmy Bivins.

 

Folley and Machen were very good fighters... much better than Marshall.

 

Patterson was robbed vs. Maxim... there is no way in hell that you have seen this fight!

Folley and Machen were very good fighters btw. Williams? Not so much, but he could bang.

Orlin Norris couldn't beat Patterson IMO. Norris was beat by Bert Cooper. I know, I know... Norris hurt his knee vs. Cooper but Cooper still outboxed him. Norris was also lucky to get the wins vs. A. Williams and A. Washington the first time he fought these men. I do give him credit for fighting better in the rematches. I felt he deserved the win over Tucker in their first fight. He did beat Tucker in their rematch.

 

You do know you are discussing with a guy here who thinks Orlin Norris is an ATG?

 

Roberto Duran

wins: Ray Leonard(UD), Buchanan(low blow after bell), De Jesusx2(TKO11,TKO12)

losses: Tommy Hearns(KO2), Marvin Hagler(UD), Benitez(UD), De Jesus(UD), Ray Leonardx2(TKO8), Kirkland Laing(SD), Robbie Sims(SD), Pat Lawlor(TKO6), Pazienza(UD,UD), Camacho(UD,UD), Fernando Castro(UD), William Joppy(TKO3), Eduardo Gonzalez(UD)

...and yet he is considered a defensive master, an offensive master, ATG chin, apparently unbeatable by most from LW to MW H2H and a top 5 ATG P4P lock

...so yes Sonny Liston is an ATG

 

How about Pipino Cuevas?

He went 35-15 (31) in 50 pro fights and was stopped 6 times.

Prior to his loss vs. Hearns he had not lost for four years.

He had lost 6 times (once by KO) prior to this winning streak.

Post-Hearns he went 8-8 and was stopped 5 times.

Prior to Hearns he went 12-0 (11) in WBA WW World title fights and he did beat some decent fighters.

He beat-

Angel Espada x2, Randy Shields, Pete Ranzany, Billy Backus, and Harold Weston among others. Decent, but not a who's who of great fighters.

 

I didn't know that :thumbsup thanks for the heads up

 

didn't you dissapear?

 

I used to think you were just being provocative to get a rise out of posters here ,but, now , I beleive you really mean your posts. atsch

 

yes, omg, it was the weirdest thing! I reappeared just a minute ago

 

...I don't think anyone is actually claiming Liston is the hope to dethrone Vitali Klitschko, black or otherwise. I mean, VK is thirty-eight but Liston is actually dead right now. Nobody I've talked to on here thinks he could make that big of a comeback.