Prime for Prime-Evander Holyfield vs Mike Tyson

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by tommygun711, Apr 23, 2010.


  1. lefthook31

    lefthook31 Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    no. Theres a difference between being a combination puncher and a one shot headhunter which he became, and theres plenty of truth to both fighters not being at their respective best.
     
  2. lefthook31

    lefthook31 Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    I know how you feel on this subject, but we cant agree on everything. :good
     
  3. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    Holyfield was past prime as well.

    Coming into the fight Holyfield was the one who looked washed up.

    Holyfield had retired after losing a close and somewhat questionable decision to Moorer in '94. Close or not, Holyfield looked like ****! Remember the issue with his heart? Holyfield looked old in this fight.

    He came back in '95 and looked fair in his win vs. Mercer.

    He looked like he didn't even belong in a ring vs. Bowe later that year (LKOby8, their 3rd fight). He gave Bowe fits but he looked washed up.

    He beat an old and fat former MW Bobby Czyz (WTKO5, no knockdowns), but so what?


    Meanwhile, Tyson had made his comeback and went 4-0 (3) vs. McNeeley (WDQ1), Mathis (KO3), Bruno (KO3), and Seldon (KO1). He had won the WBC and WBA HW World titles in these fights (he vacated the WBC belt).

    Holyfield was viewed as safe and Tyson opened as a 25-1 favorite... closed at 6-1. People were scared that Holyfield was going to get killed in this fight, seriously!
     
  4. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    This is beyond an exaggeration. And it's not like Tyson was a body puncher first and foremost.

    Only revonism says Tyson was way past it because 88 Tyson is invincible. And if he isn't way past it, then how is 88 Tyson really invincible? Well he isn't. And Holyfield was seen as shot after having lost a close fight to Moorer, then preceding to get KOed by Bowe. And he was fighting Tyson after a year or so layoff? Come on...

    A Tyson combination at 36 seconds in. A combination that starts to the body of all things. The announcer is drooling over this combination.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENHzQA9QOKE[/ame]


    Tyson combo at 3:12. Another one that starts out to the body.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQiZy1TQbI4[/ame]


    I could show you one of the Holyfield fight if you want. That fights fresh in my mind since I was working on a highlight of that fight that I haven't finished not too long ago.
     
  5. lefthook31

    lefthook31 Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    Debating with a person like you who thinks Tyson was the same in 96 as he was in 88 is just a waste of time not to mention its getting really old.
    Im very familiar with both Tyson and Holyfield, and I was one of the few that felt Holyfield had a realistic chance of beating Tyson in 96, but I didnt feel that way in 89 or 90 when he wasnt at his best, but still a more active and better prepared fighter than he was in 96.
     
  6. Clinton

    Clinton Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I agree:good.And Evander was just so much more mentally tougher.
     
  7. Gander Tasco

    Gander Tasco Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I'm not sure about this one. Part of my feels that Holyfield would have always been a bad style matchup for Mike. Tyson does very well against traditional boxers, but Holyfield is more of a counterpuncher. Then again, Tyson was without a doubt way past his best in 96'. He had become a wild headhunter at that point, lacking much of the boxing skills he once had.

    In any case, I haven't seen a lot of a prime Holyfield so it's hard for me to judge. When was Holyfield in his prime anyway? Wasn't he basically a cruiser, or a very small heavy around 1990?
     
  8. tommygun711

    tommygun711 The Future Full Member

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    I think he was at his best against Bowe, Cooper, or douglas.
     
  9. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    Yes, because that's what I said. I just don't believe he was 1/5 of himself like you do. I think it's all over-stated. AND logically, I think Tyson was closer to his physical prime than Holyfield was. Holyfield was the one who was thought to be washed up. And rightly so after some of his performances.

    Well, I was 6 at the time so I can't speak on this subject.
     
  10. ironchamp

    ironchamp Boxing Addict Full Member

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    There is a reason why I give Evander lots of credit for beating Tyson in 1996 because I think that was a fight in which Tyson was fully capable of winning unlike the Lewis fight in 2002. But he was outfought, outfoxed and outsmarted. I don't think he was prepared for the fight mentally. Most people were picking Tyson overwhelmingly because they didn't think Evander had anything left. Looking back, he clearly had something left and considering his level of activity and competition he was fully prepared for Mike. Whereas Tyson's inactivity and ring rust hadn't been shaken and Holyfield was the wrong guy to try to shake the ring rust from. Bruno just didn't have the style to trouble Tyson and nor did he have the durability to last with Mike so he couldnt put up enough resistance to make Mike work for the win which I should say is a credit to Tyson.

    But in thier prime had they both fought in 1991/1992 there are certain factors that would have to be considered. First off, Evander wouldn't have had the Bowe fights to help strengthen his character, composure and in the ring intelligence. Evander always had his bravado and his fighting spirit but when trying to make a point against a physical phenom in Bowe he learned that his ambition exceeded his talent. Those fights taught him how to adjust, when to box, when to brawl most importantly how to fight smart. It taught him how to act when he's met his match. Had he fought Tyson in '91-'92 he wouldn't have had that necessary experience under his belt. It's likely that he would have he would have slugged against a Tyson that had better stamina (this is key) and more fluidity in his punches. Tyson after prison couldn't throw the combinations with the same fluidity that he was able to throw before prison.

    Case in point

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyAi74cN24A&feature=related[/ame]

    Fast forward to 4:06.

    Post prison Tyson couldn't throw punches like that. He was still fast, and he was still powerful but his exceptional speed, not good speed, but his exceptional speed that he became famous for simply wasn't there.

    The fight happening after prison was a blessing for Holyfield. He fought Tyson at perfect time when Mike's reputation was intact and he had slowed down just enough that as the smarter fighter he was able to outmaneuver him. Holyfield was always going to be better at adapting with age than Tyson was. Their fight proved it. And lets not pretend that Tyson was far gone in 1996 that he couldn't beat him. He was still good in '96. And '97 for that matter. But he was also complacent and by the time he realized he was in for a long night around the 5th and 6th round Evander's game plan was being executed so well that he was just being outsmarted. If Tyson had an actual game plan, he may have made hit more competitive hell he may pulled it off but he didn't. Great win for Holyfield as Tyson was a great fighter, but prime for prime I honestly believe Tyson would have flogged him.
     
  11. ATP

    ATP Fringe Contender Full Member

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    The Best post i've ever read since ive been here.


    I agree 100% , I always liked Mike AND Evander for their accomplishments & this sums up my feelings towards their Prime for prime matchup
     
  12. ironchamp

    ironchamp Boxing Addict Full Member

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  13. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    Have you read PeteThePrince's post?

    It directly refutes the claim that you and many others make with those videos. Was Tyson the same in '96 as he was in '88? No, but he was still an incredibly fast puncher. The story that he no longer went to the body, didn't use head movement or didn't throw combinations anymore are simply not true. He used a lot of head movement against Holyfield. He threw body shots and combinations. Perhaps to lesser degree than during his peak years, but go through a random round of him during those years. I bet you there are several where he doesn't appear to be using that much head movement/combination punching either. Against Tucker for instance - one that went many rounds.

    Make no mistake about it. Tyson hit Holyfield with HUGE shots during their fight. Evander's chin is simply too good. I'd pick that same Holyfield to beat the 88 Tyson 2 times out of 3, but the smaller, more fragile appearing Holyfield who lost to Bowe would probably lose to Tyson. He was too slug-happy at that time.
     
  14. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    Good post Chris, and I actually agree. The irony is that 96 Holyfield was smarter and more durable. Lastly, he was stronger! For these reasons I might use this version than a prime Holyfield to fight Tyson (Preferably, I think at least).

    I'm sick of how the negativity of Holyfield is pointed out, but the marginal shortcomings of a post-prison Tyson are over-highlighted. 91-92 Holyfield wasn't some young boozy slug-machine. He fought Foreman very aptly, very toughly, and with great smarts. He proves he doesn't just slug with anyone, and renders this innate love to slug. Unfortunately, everyone assumes this will be his downfall. It could, at times, but it's just an example completely exaggerated upon. Almost as if some people Holyfield didn't know another way. Watch the Foreman fight folks. Yes, he actually gets hit a tad too much in that fight. But I think that's a bit to Foreman's cleverness and the little traps he sets.

    When I'm worried about young Holyfield I worry he doesn't have the strength to man-handle Tyson. I worry that he may not hit as hard. But he's much faster, more mobile, and has superior upper-body movement. He's very tough-minded and still durable.

    Lastly, the Bowe fights helped Holyfield earn the respect he wasn't receiving. It didn't strengthen his character or improve his abilities. Maybe I'll post later, was going to respond to Iron Champ (Which I indirectly did here I guess at times) because I find irking inconsistencies about the negatives of a younger Holyfield. Not examining both ways.
     
  15. Rise Above

    Rise Above IBHOF elector Full Member

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    I think Holyfield just had the measure or Iron Mike. The old cliche that styles make fights rings true here.