Sonny Liston (1959) vs James J Jeffries (1904) - who would have won?

I think that Jeffries style is misunderstood in significant measure.

He was a lot more defensivley minded than many people here think, and indeed it could be considered a significant weakness that he boxed defensivley with fighters he should have pressed more.

 

Zech was knocked out in 7rds ,from a left right combo .He did not stand with Liston all night,and this was a Liston, post Ali, not a prime Sonny.

 

How does Jeffries have the better legacy? I don't see it.

 

What makes you say Liston would outmuscle Jeffries? I think they'd be closely matched in that department.

 

Maybe because Jeffries didn't apply his strength very well in the ring? He struggled to outmuscle supermiddleweights and 180lbers. Liston would toss those guys around the ring like ragdolls. You think Tom Sharkey would stay there and slug and tug with Liston for 50 rounds? Not a chance. Liston didn't just look strong, he was strong. Freakish natural strength. He could manhandle you in the clinches. Poor Floyd Patterson(a chizzled fighter himself) didnt stand a chance.

Nino Valdes said "Liston was by far, the strongest fighter I ever fought".

Willie Reddish, Liston's trainer, called "Walcott and Liston the two strongest heavyweights of all time".

 

I think that Jeffries did apply his strength in the ring verry effectivley. He was verry good at tiring his oponents out any wearing them down.

His weakness was more that he often did not apply pressure as effectivley as he might have done, and did not commit to finishing an opponent when they were hurt.

 

I don't know if anyone was stronger than Liston. Maybe Foreman and this may seem like a weird pick but Bonecrusher Smith always impressed me with his sheer physical power.

But anyway, Liston and Jeffries fought in such different eras it's too hard to really compare. It was almost a different sport when Jeffries fought.

 

I have no great objection to your conclusions. From what I've seen of Liston, he used his strength primarily to stand his ground, not in the proactive manner Jeffries and Foreman did. Jeff would be the one attempting to do the outmuscling, as I see it.

Where psychology is concerned, you're entirely correct that Jeff has a huge edge here. I just don't know that his intangibles can offset Liston's optimal use of reach.

 

I've no doubt Jeffries was strong, but how effective he was at applying it is a moot point.Against the 5'8'', 32lbs lighter Sharkey, he waits to counter the incoming Sailor, he doesn't appear to take the offensive at all.

I agree with you Jeffries was defensively minded,though not particularly adept at it, judging by the punishment he shipped in several fights.Jeffries tended to fight conservatively,relying on outlasting his opponents.

That is my impression of him,and I think this would be a terrible tactic to use against a man his own size ,with heavy duty artillery , and a telegraph pole of a jab.
To win this fight Jeffries has to outlast Sonny ,absorb tremendous punishment, and come on late.as Liston fades.

The difference here is Jeffries is not absorbing the punches from super middles Fitz and Choynsky ,hard hitters though they were, he is taking the shots from a class man his own weight something he never did. A man who can tag him with a heavy jab as he comes in ,or catch him with it if he stands off.

As durable as Jeffries must have been ,I cannot see him absorbing Liston's shots all night without his facial tissue breaking down on him. Jeffries nose was broken a couple of times.

Liston likely puts it through the back of his head, along with his teeth.

 

Liston was a bully type who busted up / cut easy ( see the Williams fights ), and might have had issues with punchers. If chins are best judged when something solid lands on them then Liston's chin was " dentable ". Ali rocked Liston and shook him up early in their first fight, and Martin badly Ko'd a older version of Liston. Didn't Marty Marshal also put Liston down?

There really are not many examples of Liston being in fire fights, and those he was in that did not end early for him did not go well for Liston. Liston was simply not the type to get off the canvas, overcome adversity and win.

Liston's intangibles, or lack of them might play a role here as he is not taking Jeffries out early. While there is not clear film of Jeffries in the ring in his prime, I think he has better defense, and speed than Liston does in addition to the better stamina, heart, and chin.

I'll go with Jeffries via mid to late round stoppage via punches or with Liston opting out.

 

Well, Liston pretty much picked on smaller guys too, so could we not say the same thing? Except some of smaller guys Liston fought gave him fits, like Marthy Marshall. There is an outstanding article on four joruneyman types who gave Liston fits by the IBRO. Liston only went 12 rounds once, and really was not much of a late round KO artists.

Essentially he was a king Kong front runner type, who deep down was a bully who could dish it out but lacked the psyche to take it.

 

In my opinion this would have been a very close, tough fight. I would expect Sonny Liston to take an early lead, with Jim playing defense early on. As the fight wore on, stamina and heart would play a critical role. This, (again) in my opinion, would favor James Jeffries. I think Jim would come on late and win by a stoppage or overcome Sonny's early lead to win the decision...by a close margin.

 

agreed. but this was after zech was already cut. I said they stood in front of liston until cuts took their toll. zech did not dance or move from sonny. he was no fleet footed fancy dan just a big brave lump. besminoff did stand with liston until his corner pulled him out. he wasnt flatened but did lose the fight also. besminoff was pre Ali so his an example of a tough brusier standing up to listons bombs.

neither bessmanoff or zech were as good as jeffries by a long chalk.